| 18 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
Can abilities that grant you access to spells from other classes let you use spells on your own list before you otherwise could? Some of the abilities:
Esoteric Magic (Ex):
At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. . . .
Mystic Past Life (Su):You can add spells from
another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. . . . The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. . . . These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character.
So could a Wizard use this ability to gain summon monster VII at spell level 5, as a Summoner, instead of level 7?
I believe I remember seeing a rule about a default order of spell levels.
Something like, if a spell is on multiple lists at different levels, treat its wizard level as the default, if there's no wizard level use its cleric level, if there's no cleric level use its sorcerer level, and so on.
...I don't remember the exact order, but it's a rule to prevent things like what you're suggesting, I believe.
Gluttony's response sounds like a house rule, but I'm really not sure. If it's for PFS I have no idea as I don't play PFS. Most of the one's I've seen only lower spell level by two at most. Of them they are certainly powerful, but not ridiculously so.
My 2C.
I'd be interested in the answer to this as well. FAQed.
I'd be interested in the answer to this as well. FAQed.
Ditto.
I believe I remember seeing a rule about a default order of spell levels.
Something like, if a spell is on multiple lists at different levels, treat its wizard level as the default, if there's no wizard level use its cleric level, if there's no cleric level use its sorcerer level, and so on.
...I don't remember the exact order, but it's a rule to prevent things like what you're suggesting, I believe.
There's a rule like that pertaining to monster spell-like abilities. But in that case, the purpose is to help figure out what the DC for the SLA should be.
FAQ'ed as well. I wouldn't get my hopes too high, though... I cannot remember a FAQ request having been honored since the Flurry of Blows incedent.
In my example, a level 9 wizard could summon a CR10 bebilith, which would normally be a "challenging" encounter for his party and he can do it 4 times a day. That more or less doubles the party's power with one spell.
Common sense says a very strong no. Those classes get those spells at that spell level because that's about when the wizard or whatever gets them.
If you want to cheese it, I suppose the RAW leans toward you being able to, but even a moment of reflection on what those spell levels MEAN should make it pretty obvious.
I think you can't add a spell to a list that already is on that list.
You would be moving it not adding.
But a FAQ ruling would be good.
FAQ it too, but as I expect that you can choose those, I also would like to know about archetypes (that's where the real cheese lies) like psychonaut who gets a lvl 9 spell as 6th. (I expect a really strong no on this one of course)
No because the spell is already on his list. The Summoner does not have his own spell list, he hijacks spells from the wizard list.So could a Wizard use this ability to gain summon monster VII at spell level 5, as a Summoner, instead of level 7?
I think LazarX is on the right track here. If you look at the Summons's spell list in the PRD it doesn't include the Summon Monster Spells so you couldn't do what you are thinking. Note that I'm referencing the Spell List not the spells that a summoner can cast.
I suspect that a particular spell isn't on more than one classes Spell list, but instead that class has access to the spells from other Class's Lists.
Edit: Aunt hauler is listed under summoner and alchemist, so maybe it doesn't cross books? Either way, i think there is a distinction between available spells for a class and the spell list for a class.
I'm sure Aunt Hauler will be disappointed to hear about this, but what about the Ant Haul spell? ;)
Incidentally, the Aquatic Sorcerer Bloodline already provides a precedent of a spell appearing twice in a spell list as a result of a class feature. Aquatic Sorcerers gain it as a 4th level spell (via their bloodline) and a 5th level spell (normal sorcerer list).
So you're saying summoners don't have a spell list they cast off of, they just have a list of spells they can cast. Worst. argument. ever.
Even if the thing in my original post doesn't work, there is still a bunch of cheese pretty clearly available to samsarans (just not as powerful as summon monster) e.g. Holy Sword at s.level 4 from the paladin list (got bumped to level 7 for glory domain,) Haste at level 2 for witches (bad enough when a summoner does it)
Incidentally, the Aquatic Sorcerer Bloodline already provides a precedent of a spell appearing twice in a spell list as a result of a class feature. Aquatic Sorcerers gain it as a 4th level spell (via their bloodline) and a 5th level spell (normal sorcerer list).
Domains do it, too, even in the CRB you could get wind wall at levels 2 and 3, along with a number of others.
Worst argument ever? Go look at the spell section under Summoner and tell me what spells are there. Not the part in the class description that tell you what spells you can cast, the Spell List section under Magic section where it tells you the spell descriptions.So you're saying summoners don't have a spell list they cast off of, they just have a list of spells they can cast. Worst. argument. ever.
Even if the thing in my original post doesn't work, there is still a bunch of cheese pretty clearly available to samsarans (just not as powerful as summon monster) e.g. Holy Sword at s.level 4 from the paladin list (got bumped to level 7 for glory domain,) Haste at level 2 for witches (bad enough when a summoner does it)
I'm pretty sure that's the list of the new spells from that book that the summoner can cast. I didn't go back to double check, though.
I'm pretty sure that's the list of the new spells from that book that the summoner can cast. I didn't go back to double check, though.Worst argument ever? Go look at the spell section under Summoner and tell me what spells are there. Not the part in the class description that tell you what spells you can cast, the Spell List section under Magic section where it tells you the spell descriptions.So you're saying summoners don't have a spell list they cast off of, they just have a list of spells they can cast. Worst. argument. ever.
Even if the thing in my original post doesn't work, there is still a bunch of cheese pretty clearly available to samsarans (just not as powerful as summon monster) e.g. Holy Sword at s.level 4 from the paladin list (got bumped to level 7 for glory domain,) Haste at level 2 for witches (bad enough when a summoner does it)
Correct. That section is the new spells in the APG that the summoner gets. The summoner's spell list, at the time of the APG, is listed at the bottom of this page. This list includes the ones listed in the APG, marking them with an asterisk.
I'm pretty sure that's the list of the new spells from that book that the summoner can cast. I didn't go back to double check, though.
This is correct, the summoner spell list is on page 64 and includes summon monster, it is even referred to as "the summoner spell list" on page 54 under the Spells class feature.
Most of the 4 and 6 level casting classes don't actually get many early entries, but starting at level 2 the summoner gets quite a lot. There are only a handful spells on the original level 5/6 summoner lists that are not early entries. Outside of Holy Sword and Eaglesoul the problems all seem to come from the summoner list for this reason.
No because the spell is already on his list. The Summoner does not have his own spell list, he hijacks spells from the wizard list.So could a Wizard use this ability to gain summon monster VII at spell level 5, as a Summoner, instead of level 7?
From the 'Summoner' entry in the APG:
"Spells: A summoner casts arcane spells drawn from the summoner spell list."
Emphasis mine.
For esoteric magic there are a lot of prerequisites, including giving up a caster level. Frankly I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I do see how it could be cheesed.
Can abilities that grant you access to spells from other classes let you use spells on your own list before you otherwise could? Some of the abilities:
Esoteric Magic (Ex):
At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. . . .Mystic Past Life (Su):You can add spells from
another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. . . . The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. . . . These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character.So could a Wizard use this ability to gain summon monster VII at spell level 5, as a Summoner, instead of level 7?
James Jacob's take: you can indeed get summon monster off the summoner list. In the case of the PFS, however, it would be a 6th level spell, not a 5th level spell, for the wizard.
Presumably the line "if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher" was there to clarify that whilst all your spellcasting classes now get the spell, the original class is the only class that does not get a spell level increase.
Also, Domains are considered spell lists (per Cleric), but bloodlines are not spell lists. AFAIK.