I'm building a character, in part for a Skull and Shackles campaign but also to add to my library of 'ready-made' PC's. In our campaign its ruled that all natural armor bonuses stack, but I'm trying to hammer out the actual RAW/RAI on the matter.
The character is a Half-Orc Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 1 / Sorcerer (Draconic - Linnorm) 15 / Dragon Disciple 4. He will be taking the Eldritch Heiritage feats for the Orc bloodline. As a result we're looking at a pretty wide array of natural armor bonuses and the confusion is what stacks, what's in conflict and what's applicable.
Let's assume the character is 17th level, is using the Power of Giants ability and casting Transformation. The character gains:
+4 Natural Armor bonus from Dragon Resistances.
+2 Natural Armor bonus from Fearless and a +4 Natural Armor bonus from Power of Giants (same link).
+2 Natural Armor bonus from Dragon Disciple.
+5 Natural Armor bonus from an Amulet of Natural Armor.
+4 Natural Armor bonus from the spell Transformation.
+2 Natural Armor bonus from two instances of the Monster feat Improved Natural Armor. (I'm not taking this but I qualify for it and since we're already addressing the issue...)
+6 Natural Armor bonus from casting the spell Transformation, granted by the Linnorm Bloodline.
That's a total of +29 to natural armor, assuming they all stack... since many of them seem actually designed to stack (like Fearless and Power of Giants), I'm left wondering how many actually do.
It depends whether or not the wording is "+X to the natural armor bonus" or "Provides +X enhancement bonus to Nat Armor." IIRC the first stacks, but for the latter, only one enhancement bonus counts.
That wording is ambiguous the majority of the time, which is why I went to the trouble of providing the links to every source.
For instance, within the Orc Bloodline alone there are two seperate Natural Armor bonuses:
Fearless (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain a +4 bonus on saving throws made against fear and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, you lose your light sensitivity, gain immunity to fear, and your natural armor bonus increases to +2.
Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
I find it impossible to believe that those two bonuses were not intended to stack, given that they are from the progression of the same bloodline.
+6 Natural Armor bonus from casting the spell Transformation, granted by the Linnorm Bloodline. (Choose whichever base natural armor is highest)
+2 Natural Armor bonus from Dragon Disciple. (Adds to base na)
+5 Natural Armor bonus from an Amulet of Natural Armor.(enhancement bonus to base na)
+2 Natural Armor bonus from two instances of the Monster feat Improved Natural Armor. (I'm not taking this but I qualify for it and since we're already addressing the issue...) (adds to base na)
+15
Other bonuses don't stack
I'm not arguing with you - indeed, thanks for going to the trouble of answering - but how does one know which applies and which does not? The wording is inconsistent - for instance, you are saying that the natural armor bonus from Dragon Disciple doesn't stack with the natural armor bonus from the Draconic Bloodline, even though the two are part and parcel of the same class?
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I'm not arguing with you - indeed, thanks for going to the trouble of answering - but how does one know which applies and which does not? The wording is inconsistent - for instance, you are saying that the natural armor bonus from Dragon Disciple doesn't stack with the natural armor bonus from the Draconic Bloodline, even though the two are part and parcel of the same class?+6 Natural Armor bonus from casting the spell Transformation, granted by the Linnorm Bloodline. (Choose whichever base natural armor is highest)
+2 Natural Armor bonus from Dragon Disciple. (Adds to base na)
+5 Natural Armor bonus from an Amulet of Natural Armor.(enhancement bonus to base na)
+2 Natural Armor bonus from two instances of the Monster feat Improved Natural Armor. (I'm not taking this but I qualify for it and since we're already addressing the issue...) (adds to base na)
+15
Other bonuses don't stack
You've kind of picked a whole slew of abilities coming from a few different sources here. John pointed out the bes possible combination of those bonuses that are still legal. Technically, it's not that some of those abilities don't stack with each other, but that they don't stack with a different larger bonus. Jon gave you the highest of the available natural armor bonuses, the +6 Transformation, then added the dragon disciple +2, which increases your base natural armor. That would stack with the bonus from Draconic Bloodline, but the Draconic Bloodline bonus does not stack with the bonus from transformation.
It's all in the wording. Essentially, a natural armor bonus does not stack with a natural armor bonus. You get the higher of what's available. So you get your highest natural armor bonus, plus your highest enhancement bonus to natural armor, then the feats and the dragon disciple ability which specifically increase your base natural armor bonus.
I gave you the most liberal interpretation. Normally bonuses of the same type don't stack.
However, the wording in the dragon disciple says that it adds to your natural armor - so I added those bonuses to the highest natural armor you had listed (+6).
I'm still trying to understand. Consider this:
The Linnorm primal bloodline grants a natural armor bonus equal to the level of the spell you've just cast. The Draconic bloodline (of which Linnorm is a part of) grants an eventual +4 natural armor bonus - but these two don't stack?
It's all in the wording. Essentially, a natural armor bonus does not stack with a natural armor bonus. You get the higher of what's available. So you get your highest natural armor bonus, plus your highest enhancement bonus to natural armor, then the feats and the dragon disciple ability which specifically increase your base natural armor bonus.
I must be an idiot... I just can't find the distinct wording differences that you guys seem to see.
Also, while I'm not the biggest fan of bonuses not stacking anyway, this particular type of bonus seems as cumbersome and difficult to interpret as possible, and far moreso than necessary - which is why we ruled that natural armor bonuses just get lumped together and, like dodge bonuses, always stack.
It's tricky because of how they word it. Don't know if it helps but here are the entries from the PFSRD... An enhancement bonus or abilities that cleary state the bonus stacks are what you want to increase your Natural Armor Bonus.
Bonus (Natural Armor)
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
It's very similar to someone wearing full plate while under the effect of mage armor. His AC is 10 + (higher of 9 or 4) = 19 since the mage armor and full plate don't stack.
In your example, there are two types of bonuses in effect - natural armor and enhancement bonus to natural armor. The dragon disciple and improved natural armor feat add to existing natural armor and are sort of exceptions to the non-stacking nature of bonuses.
AC = 10+natural armor+enhancement bonus to natural armor + other bonuses (armor, dodge, deflection, etc)
AC = 10+(highest of 4+2+2, 4+2+2, 2+2+2, 4+2+2, 6+2+2) + 5 (amulet of na grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor) + other bonuses (armor, dodge, deflection, etc) = 25 + other bonuses (armor, dodge, deflection, etc)
Am I the only one that thinks this is an unnecessarily cumbersome way of doing things? I can't think of too many instances in the game where 'enhancements' to armor's enhancement bonuses are made. At any rate, thank you - all of you - for taking the time out to try and explain it.
One of the main purposes of this thread was to try and determine which options to drop. For instance, if I'm not going to get much of a bang out of the Linnorm's Arcana, then I would probably be better off going straight Dragon bloodline. If I don't get any benefits out of the Orcish bloodline 'Fearless' power, then I can use that feat better and so on.
The character is designed to be a Tank-Mage of sorts, to be both a blaster and a secondary melee combatant with a high AC. It was originally conceived as a Paladin (Gold Dragon) instead of a Barbarian, but Skulls and Shackles doesn't really support the play of a Paladin very well. He'll be fighting alongside a Lore Warden with a reach weapon and Whirlwind Attack as well as a horde of summoned creatures more often than not.
Any reccomendations regarding which Natural Armor options to definitely keep or definitely drop would be much appreciated.