Hello community!
My question is about an ogre barbarian with rage power Beast Totem (Su). Does the natural armor bonus granted by this rage power stacks with natural armor of the ogre and why?
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Gonna paste something from a similar question yesterday:
"The bonus provided by an Amulet of Natural Armour is an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armour, which stacks with a Natural Armour Bonus. Be very careful when reading spell and item descriptions, as many of them will also be enhancement bonuses to Natural Armour, too (like Barkskin)."
Since the natural armor granted by Beast Totem is a bonus, it stacks with the ogre's natural armor, but would not stack with anything else granting a natural armor bonus (a la Amulet of Natural Armor mentioned above).
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The natural armor gained from beast totem is not an enhancement bonus, it is a natural armor bonus. It is the same type of bonus as an ogre's natural armor. As such, it will not stack with the natural armor from an ogre.
I went back and read Beast Totem again, and Jon is correct, that is how it reads.
Gonna paste something from a similar question yesterday:
"The bonus provided by an Amulet of Natural Armour is an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armour, which stacks with a Natural Armour Bonus. Be very careful when reading spell and item descriptions, as many of them will also be enhancement bonuses to Natural Armour, too (like Barkskin)."
Since the natural armor granted by Beast Totem is a bonus, it stacks with the ogre's natural armor, but would not stack with anything else granting a natural armor bonus (a la Amulet of Natural Armor mentioned above).
I'm pretty sure that's wrong; the rage power doesn't grant an enhancement bonus to natural armor the way the amulet of NA/Barkskin do, so they would stack.
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I'm pretty sure that's wrong; the rage power doesn't grant an enhancement bonus to natural armor the way the amulet of NA/Barkskin do, so they would stack.Gonna paste something from a similar question yesterday:
"The bonus provided by an Amulet of Natural Armour is an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armour, which stacks with a Natural Armour Bonus. Be very careful when reading spell and item descriptions, as many of them will also be enhancement bonuses to Natural Armour, too (like Barkskin)."
Since the natural armor granted by Beast Totem is a bonus, it stacks with the ogre's natural armor, but would not stack with anything else granting a natural armor bonus (a la Amulet of Natural Armor mentioned above).
Yeah sorry, in my initial post I was reading Beast Totem as granting an enhancement bonus, which it does not. So, Beast Totem would stack with the amulet, but not with the ogre's natural armor bonus.
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There is Natural Armor Bonus and Enhancement to Natural Armor Bonus. The first comes from the Ogre (the inherent thick skin). The second comes from things like Amulet of Natural Armor or Barkskin, it enhances natural armor. All creatures are assumed to have at least a +0 Natural Armor Bonus.
Being an Ogre with an inherent natural armor value means you don't get any benefit from Rage Totem (as it is +1 per 4 levels and ogres have a +5 NA, you'd have to hit level 24 before it gave you a better number).
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
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There is Natural Armor Bonus and Enhancement to Natural Armor Bonus. The first comes from the Ogre (the inherent thick skin). The second comes from things like Amulet of Natural Armor or Barkskin, it enhances natural armor. All creatures are assumed to have at least a +0 Natural Armor Bonus.
Being an Ogre with an inherent natural armor value means you don't get any benefit from Rage Totem (as it is +1 per 4 levels and ogres have a +5 NA, you'd have to hit level 24 before it gave you a better number).
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Thanks for laying that out Murph, I was having trouble explaining it, apparently.
No problem. The issue is terminology used here. They call having thick skin and scales a "natural armor bonus" when it is really just "natural armor". It just gets stupid from there (like always expressing NA as +X and enhancements to NA as +Y).
I had to research this just last week for my party's druid who wanted to use bark skin while wild shaped. Wild shape gives you a new natural armor bonus (a Large form gives you a 2 NAB) while bark skin gives you a +N enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus. So a ogre that wild shapes into a large cat now has an NAB of 2, not 5, because it replaces the NAB. But bark skin still works because it enhances the current NAB.
Being an Ogre with an inherent natural armor value means you don't get any benefit from Rage Totem (as it is +1 per 4 levels and ogres have a +5 NA, you'd have to hit level 24 before it gave you a better number).
So if I understand a player playing a character kobold barbarian level 12 and having Beast Totem * have a total natural armor 4 instead of 5 (because its natural armor +1 of the kobolds is ignored).
* Just to be in agreement about Beast Totem on a character playing a race with no natural armor, natural armor bonus from Beast Totem records like this:
It's ? 1 +1 / 4 level barbarian
So at level 6 -> 2
At 8 -> 3
At 12 -> 4
Etc ...
Beast Totem (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 natural armor bonus. <-This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has attained. A barbarian must have the lesser beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.
Otherwise, thank you for your answers. They will be well lighted the french community (Pathfinder-Fr) to which I belong. Indeed, I braved the language barrier to come ask you.
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Being an Ogre with an inherent natural armor value means you don't get any benefit from Rage Totem (as it is +1 per 4 levels and ogres have a +5 NA, you'd have to hit level 24 before it gave you a better number).So if I understand a player playing a character kobold barbarian level 12 and having Beast Totem * have a total natural armor 3 instead of 4 if he were a human, for example.
* Just to be in agreement about Beast Totem on a character playing a race with no natural armor, natural armor bonus from Beast Totem records like this:
It's ? 1 +1 / 4 level barbarian
So at level 6 -> 2
At 8 -> 3
At 12 -> 4
Etc ...Beast Totem (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 natural armor bonus. <-This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has attained. A barbarian must have the lesser beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.Otherwise, thank you for your answers. They will be well lighted the french community (Pathfinder-Fr) to which I belong. Indeed, I braved the language barrier to come ask you.
I can't recall if kobolds have natural armor, but (all other things being equal) you would take the higher of the bonuses between the creatures starting Natural armor bonus, and the natural armor bonus granted by Beast Totem. So your level 12 barabarian would have the higher of either the +4 granted by beast totem, or whatever bonus was granted by his race.
Ok, I edited my previous post, but I understand you. And yes, the kobolds have a +1 natural armor.
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So, back to the ogre is at level 20 and not 24 he has improved his natural armor with his Beast totem power. Do you agree?
It is an untyped bonus to natural armor.
Don't untyped bonuses normally stack?
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It is an untyped bonus to natural armor.Don't untyped bonuses normally stack?
Untyped bonuses from separate sources normally do stack, yes, but BBT's other supposition was incorrect. The Ogres racial natural armor is a natural armor bonus, and does not stack with other natural armor bonuses. The same way you can't wear leather armor underneath a set of plate armor and expect them to stack. An Amulet of Natural Armor gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor though, which would stack with either the Beast Totem NA or the Ogre's NA, though the Beast Totem and Racial Natural armor would not stack with each other. Natural Armor is not an untyped bonues, as Natural armor is one of the bonus types.
No Ironhide would not stack with beast totem, they both grant a natural armor bonus, so only the higher bonus would apply.