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So the Combat Modifiers table in the Combat chapter of the Core Rulebook says that an invisible attacker gets a +2 bonus to hit and denies the defender their dex bonus to AC. For a rogue, this means sneak attack.
From conversations here on the forums and with other players in person, I was under the impression that any attack from a stealthed position did the same thing, if the defender was unaware of the attacker's presence. But I can't find that in the rules.
I'm making my first roguish character and want to make sure I understand this stuff before playing him. Can anyone point out where I should be looking in the rules?
Unfortunately, the stealth rules are not written that well and there is no direct link between stealth and invisibility (except that invisibility gets a +20/40bonus to stealth). The stealth rebuild fixes this but it is not yet RAW.
- Gauss
Stealth is being redone, but you can sneak attack from stealth. It is nigh impossible to restealth for lack of a better word in the middle of combat however.
Xavier read this-->click me
edit:I meant that for Fromper, but Xavier you can read it also. :)
Veldebrand, it has been announced that we will probably not see the stealth changes in this version of PF.
- Gauss
Yes, per RAW, Stealth/Concealment/HiPS does not make your foe lose his DEX.
In order to fix this, the devs found they had to more or less completely re-write the rules. If you read the playtests Guass linked to you'll also see page after page of points that the posters/members here brought up, which means they opened a 55gal drum of worms with those proposed changes.
Simply put, it's better to drop this and wait 'til 2nd Ed.
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Actually it does by RAW. The issue is the the rules are spread all over the book.
+1
Stealth does have fundamentally non-functional RAW issues going on, but this isn't one of those,
although the playtest version definitely communicated this particular issue much better than the RAW does.
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A comprehensive list of all the stealth rules would be nice.
Anyone know where to find one?
There aren't any. The closes you can get are the various thread on stealth.
Some of the stealth rules are actually under perception because of how they interact.
The other issue is that stealth itself is only a part of a larger combination of rules so they can't really be called stealth rules anyway.
The issue with being able to deny dex is more an issue of perception than stealth. You did not make the perception check, therefore you are unaware. That is why you are denied dex. It is just easier to say stealth denies dex, but that is not entirely accurate.
Some of the stealth rules are actually under perception because of how they interact.
The other issue is that stealth itself is only a part of a larger combination of rules so they can't really be called stealth rules anyway.
The issue with being able to deny dex is more an issue of perception than stealth. You did not make the perception check, therefore you are unaware. That is why you are denied dex. It is just easier to say stealth denies dex, but that is not entirely accurate.
If you read the Blogs, it is clear that the Devs fully agree that the RAW does not make a foe lose his DEX due to Stealth or concealment. You can say it's RAI, but the writers make it clear that it's something they were attempting to add, not just a FAQ that needed a paragraph to clarify the current RAW.
I keep hearing that, but I have yet to see quote that backs it. I see quotes saying stealth sucks in combat, but with that aside perception my last post to BBT is more accurate than focusing on the stealth skill.
If you read the Blogs, it is clear that the Devs fully agree that the RAW does not make a foe lose his DEX due to Stealth or concealment. You can say it's RAI, but the writers make it clear that it's something they were attempting to add, not just a FAQ that needed a paragraph to clarify the current RAW.
Some of the stealth rules are actually under perception because of how they interact.
The other issue is that stealth itself is only a part of a larger combination of rules so they can't really be called stealth rules anyway.
The issue with being able to deny dex is more an issue of perception than stealth. You did not make the perception check, therefore you are unaware. That is why you are denied dex. It is just easier to say stealth denies dex, but that is not entirely accurate.
I once thought the same thing you did, but when prompted for proof, I had nothing. When people in my rules thread made the claim, I asked them for proof. Nobody else had anything either. I am not blindly dismissing you, but all I saw in the blog was that the the stealth rules need to be more clear, and they need to be more effective. If you have a "X does not work by RAW statement" then myself, and others would like to see it. As of now my first post in my stealth thread works by RAW. If it does work I have not seen RAW proof of that either. Some tried to ignore the word "while", but that is about as close as anyone came, and since you can't really ignore words at still that is not really close at all.
Perhaps a listing of all relevant rules pertaining to Stealth in some manner.
I suppose I could only hope.
The rules listed will depend on the situation. A mini stealth guide would be nice though. Stealth by RAW does not work well at all though. Many people ignore certain parts of it. I don't think there is much of an issue understanding how it works. The issue is that we(most of the community) do not like how it works.
The Jack B Nimble thread brought up a lot of points, but you would have to make you own list of rules though.
As an aside the suckiness(could not think of a more professional word at the time) of the stealth rules are another reason why the assassin PrC is not that good.
I keep hearing that, but I have yet to see quote that backs it. I see quotes saying stealth sucks in combat, but with that aside perception my last post to BBT is more accurate than focusing on the stealth skill.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/2011/september/v5748dyo5lcml?Stealth-Playtest-R ound-TwoStealth
"Speaking of hidden, while we have kept the invisible condition, and have even strengthened the wording on that condition a bit, we have also created a lesser, connected condition called hidden. You gain the hidden condition when you benefit from Stealth, and you gain the invisible condition when you use a spell or effect that makes you visually undetectable, like the invisibility spell. Hidden is the base condition, and invisible is an upgrade of that condition....Hidden: You are difficult to detect but you not invisible. A hidden creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You do not have line of sight to a creature or object that is hidden from you."
Note that Hidden is a brand new proposed condition, a lesser version of Invisible. Hidden does not excist in the current RAW.
DrDeth that still does not disprove what I said. It only officially gives a hidden character +2 when they attack.
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Why you can be subject to a sneak attack while because your perception sucks.
If I am small creature, and you have been cursed that would work. The perception for noticing someone is 0(before any modifiers come into play). Most GM's don't make anyone roll for perception if stealth is not used, but the book does account for being able to automatically notice things.
A tiny creature causes a -12 to perception checks IIRC. If you are cursed with a penalty of -8 and you fail to make a 20 on your roll then you fail to reach 0. At that point you are unaware of me, and ripe for a sneak attack.
PS, not trying to reopen the thread. I just wanted this information to be in this thread in case I need it later.