Before we start, let me say that I am aware that multi-classing casters is almost universally a terrible, horrible, no-good idea.
That being said, if one were insistent upon attempting to combine the ability to sneak attack with spell combat, how would one do it best?
A bard could probably do most of what such a character could, and I may end up going that direction. And thematically at least, if not mechanically, one could merely pick up stealth on a magus and be done with.
I was thinking something like a dervish dancing Magus/Vivisectionist. Possible heading to Eldritch Knight to make up BAB. The Hexcrafter archetype is appealing but, alas, loses spell recall -- which seems essential (along with Extra Arcane Pool) if multi-classing.
Further questions: is there any point at which such a character might excel? Low level play, for instance? Or another way to add spell damage to multiple attacks in the same round aside from spell combat? Would it best to just pick up a couple in Magus and then advance the sneak attack dice as much as possible, essentially creating a rogue with some handy low-level spells?
Again, I realize this is probably a mind-bogglingly bad idea, but the idea has stuck in my head, despite hundreds of simpler builds that would probably be better ... so how do I do it best?
Would your GM be amenable to homebrew?
Would your GM be amenable to homebrew?
It's possible, but I'd prefer to see what can be done with it from RAW before I try going to him with homebrew stuff. Still, I'm open to -- and appreciate -- all suggestions and ideas.
I would ask why the reason for sneak attack. If it is conceptual you may just have to deal with the loss of power. If you are trying to sneak attack for more damage then you should not do it, since you will end up doing less damage.
I would ask why the reason for sneak attack. If it is conceptual you may just have to deal with the loss of power. If you are trying to sneak attack for more damage then you should not do it, since you will end up doing less damage.
It's largely conceptual: A melee-capable Arcane Trickster, if you will. Sneak attacking with magic in a melee as opposed to ranged. It just seems fun and like I said, the idea really stuck with me.
What's the break point, roughly, for when such a character really starts falling behind? If it's really just utterly, irredeemably fail at any level then I could be persuaded to flesh out the concept some other way, I suppose. But I'd still be curious what people might come up with.
This was my (horribly named) stab at the concept. It's from awhile ago, and unfortunately I can't show the current draft, but it does the trick. I've been playtesting a version of it for the past month or two, and there haven't been any issues with it overpowering others yet.
This was my (horribly named) stab at the concept. It's from awhile ago, and unfortunately I can't show the current draft, but it does the trick. I've been playtesting a version of it for the past month or two, and there haven't been any issues with it overpowering others yet.
Hey, that's not too shabby! Thanks! Doesn't seem overpowered, I'll show my GM and hopefully he'll like it, but I'd still be curious what could be done with RAW multi-classing to optimize this admittedly suboptimal idea.
Thanks! The version we're playtesting right now does get Combat Expertise at 1st level, to offset the feat tax of an archetype focusing on Feinting. Here's the archetype's thread on the forums, for people with questions or comments.
BUT! RAW.
First, you'll need magic knack for that +2 to CLs. The easiest way to get some sneak attack while still being relevant is arcane trickster. The easiest way to get into THAT is probably rogue / ninja and Assassin. Unfortunately, vivisectionist doesn't cut it due to their rather unique language saying that the sneak attack itself doesn't stack, but your levels stack to determine it. So, you'd need 3 levels of vivisectionist to get +2d6 needed to get in there.
Which brings us back to the rogue / ninja and assassin. Their sneak attacks do stack, at the cost of having to be evil. These two levels will be offset by magical knack, which is nice.
There are a number of guides for the arcane trickster out there, I believe. One by Wraithstrike, the other by A Highly Regarded Expert. You should check out the Guide to the Guides there.
The sweet spot for these are probably when you get +2d6 sneak attack, to be honest. With the "extra attack" that spellstrike gives, you'll be doing a fair amount of sneak attack damage against flanked targets. If your GM is nice, he might even double up the sneak attack dice on the "extra spellstrike attack". I doubt that's RAW or RAI though.
Hopefully your GM will be tailoring the encounters to your group's capabilities anyways, so you shouldn't fall too far behind.
Thanks! Using assassin is tricky because of the alignment restriction but I suppose I could substitute inner sea pirate, especially as I'd only be dipping one level.
Given all the fun things even low-level spells can do, and picking up a 0-level touch spell with an arcana, I think this actually looks a little better than I thought it would. Not optimal maybe, and trickster is a little squishy but it's pretty spot on for the concept I was trying to bring to life.
Honestly I would still do the vivisectionist/magus myself.
It grants the discovery which can be all sorts of useful, as well as the mutagen, a small perk in the extracts (which as intelligence based things you'll get more of as you go), expands your items useable, and provides nice base stat abilities (the improved save throws for example) as well as poison use and brew potion (if you are so inclined, if not trade them out with an archetype).
It's not as fast an entry as rogue/assassin, but it comes with nice things of its own too without damaging your BAB as much (rogue 1/assassin 1 provides +0 BAB while alchemist 3 provides +2 BAB).
The BAB matters a bit more for the magus than it would for other arcane tricksters since you'll probably still be going for the flanking option sometimes.
IF you have the charisma to support it though Ninja is nice for the switch action extra attack and ninja tricks (I especially like pressure points for stacking on the sneak attack effects).
IF you have the feats to support it the aberrant bloodline's third level power is always rather nice too (this is doubtful however).
Why multiclass? Dervish Magus with a trait for stealth as a class skill is a perfectly fine sneaker.
I realize it's not optimal -- probably even objectively bad -- but the point is creating a spell-based sneak attacker that isn't ranged.
I appreciate the input -- what you suggest is perfectly serviceable and probably a much, much better idea.
An Arcane Duelist wouldn't even need the trait, and could still do most of the same things, but neither is quite what I'm trying to do, which admittedly is pretty goofy.
Somewhere there's a Natural Twenty post about using Minor and Major Magic rogue talents to accomplish much the same with a straight rogue, although it occurs to me a dip in sorcerer for certain bloodlines would be pretty boss.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/fun-ch aracter-builds-natural-twenties/natural-twenties-4-the-rogue-damage-dealing -caster
That's more along the lines of what I was trying to do, but with Magus.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far all!
Unfortunately, that natural twenties article is based on the erroneous beliefs that you can apply gifted adept to major magic (shocking grasp), that spell-like abilities count as spells, that non-damaging spells can apply sneak attack, that you can choose Major Magic multiple times, and ... yea it doesn't work. Cool idea though.
Unfortunately, that natural twenties article is based on the erroneous beliefs that you can apply gifted adept to major magic (shocking grasp), that spell-like abilities count as spells, that non-damaging spells can apply sneak attack, that you can choose Major Magic multiple times, and ... yea it doesn't work. Cool idea though.
Exactly! The mechanics are wrong but the idea is fun, refreshingly quirky and might be surprisingly good -- if it worked by RAW. Hence my attempts to recreate it. Only with Magus.
Cheapy,something you mentioned earlier caught my eye though: "If your GM is nice, he might even double up the sneak attack dice on the 'extra spellstrike attack.' I doubt that's RAW or RAI though."
My interpretation was that you can apply sneak attack damage (when applicable) to the "extra attack." Is that not the consensus? Doesn't much effect my concept, but it hurts the DPR a bit.
I was referring strictly to the idea of the actual spellstrike attack dealing sneak attack damage as well as the spell that the attack is delivering.
I'm pretty sure you just add the sneak attack damage once for that, althoug I haven't read the ability in a while.