During our campaign my fighter was killed (good move by our gm... he dropped a troll on my head and ripped my throat out...). After making a tactful retreat we reincarnated my fighter and rolled a goblin (Yay... /cry)
The question / problem is I was using an elvan Curved blade, now that I'm a small creature I've been looking into the rules for larger weapons (small creature using medium weapons) so the question, Can I use the blade as a small creature with the -2 penalty or..... not
Rule below in the phb, I am just asking for clarification.
"Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make
optimum
use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A
cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size
category of difference between the size of its intended wielder
and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient
with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty
also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon
(whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed,
or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered
by one step for each size category of difference between
the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the
weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would
wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed
weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to
something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by
this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all."
Not, it is an inappropriately sized weapon. How to solve temporarily: enlarge while not holding the weapon. How to solve permanently: fix the reincarnate, enlarge permanently, get a new weapon, or get your weapon magically resized.
- Gauss
Oh while Im on topic: one other way to solve: Alter self. There are two magic items that have Alter Self effects. One lasts for an hour (Robe of Blending, CRB, 8400gp) while the other is indefinite (Greater Hat of Disguise, Pathfinder Module: Curse of the Riven Sky, 12000gp).
Again, don't hold onto your sword when you change size or itll change size with you.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: Oh while Im on topic: one other way to solve: Alter self. There are two magic items that have Alter Self effects. One lasts for an hour (Robe of Blending, CRB, 8400gp) while the other is indefinite (Greater Hat of Disguise, Pathfinder Module: Curse of the Riven Sky, 12000gp).
Again, don't hold onto your sword when you change size or itll change size with you.
- Gauss
So what it changes to medium.
Gignere:
If a small creature were carrying a medium weapon when said small creature were enlarged that medium weapon would become a large weapon even while the small creature became medium. Thus, his shiny two-handed weapon is still ineligible for use.
When he has alter self (via magic item listed above) or enlarge person cast upon him he needs to NOT have the medium weapon on his person. Thus: a small creature becomes medium, picks up his medium 2handed sword and wields it.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: Gignere:
If a small creature were carrying a medium weapon when said small creature were enlarged that medium weapon would become a large weapon even while the small creature became medium. Thus, his shiny two-handed weapon is still ineligible for use.
When he has alter self (via magic item listed above) or enlarge person cast upon him he needs to NOT have the medium weapon on his person. Thus: a small creature becomes medium, picks up his medium 2handed sword and wields it.
- Gauss
Yes if it was enlarge person, but alter self only changes the weapon to medium.
Here is the relevant text on polymorph, particularly the last sentence.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Actually no, Alter self changes the creatures size to small or medium. As per the polymorph rules all equipment changes size with you (up or down) if possible otherwise it is absorbed. In this case it would STILL change upwards in size.
CRB p212 wrote: If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size. As a result of this, if he resizes upwards so does his equipment. His sword would still be 1 size too large for him to weild.
- Gauss
I realize it probably wasn't intended for PCs to be able to carry around inappropriately-sized gear and then Alter Self and have it all fit nicely, but there it is.
Apparently we are reading the same sentance and coming to different conclusions. You are reading it as 'the equipment resizes to become useful to you even if it was not'. I am reading it as 'the equipment resizes to maintain the same size differential'.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: Actually no, Alter self changes the creatures size to small or medium. As per the polymorph rules all equipment changes size with you (up or down) if possible otherwise it is absorbed. In this case it would STILL change upwards in size.
CRB p212 wrote: If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size. As a result of this, if he resizes upwards so does his equipment. His sword would still be 1 size too large for him to weild.
- Gauss
That doesn't match his size though. That is the benefit of polymorph school it resizes to match your new size. RAW it works. Whether it is RAI, I am not arguing. But a literal reading of the polymorph school (which enlarge person is not) specifically said a weapon resizes to fit the new size of the form.
I do not agree with your definition of 'resizing to fit'. In this case I believe it means the equipment maintains size disparity so that he can continue to use his equipment normally. If your interpretation were correct ALL sizes of equipment would suddenly be eligible for wear due to the polymorph school.
Anyhow, it would be easy enough for him to drop it and then use a move equivalent action to pick it up. It is ultimately a minor issue for him to resolve with his GM.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: I do not agree with your definition of 'resizing to fit'. In this case I believe it means the equipment maintains size disparity so that he can continue to use his equipment normally. If your interpretation were correct ALL sizes of equipment would suddenly be eligible for wear due to the polymorph school.
Anyhow, it would be easy enough for him to drop it and then use a move equivalent action to pick it up. It is ultimately a minor issue for him to resolve with his GM.
- Gauss
Like I said RAI, it is probably unintended but RAW weapons under a polymorph effect will resize to match your new size.
There is no other way to read it.
Here is James' response
James Jacobs wrote: Gauss wrote:
James,
A small creature (lets say a halfling) acquires a Medium sized two-handed weapon (it is ineligible to use this weapon due to being too large).
Small creature has a magic item of Alter Self and changes his size to medium.
Based on the following line:
CRB p212 wrote:
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Which of the following is true?
A) His Medium 2-handed weapon becomes a Large 2-handed weapon (the weapon increases in size when he does).
B) His medium 2-handed weapon becomes a medium 2-handed weapon (his weapon does not change size when he does).
Thanks as always,
- Gauss
A is correct. If the halfling wants to use that giant sword, he needs to put it onto the ground or on a shelf or something before he gets enlarged.
Now, as always James is not the ultimate rules official. BUT, he is closer to it than any of us are and until someone who is more of an official rules guy than James comes along and states otherwise this is how I will treat it in my games (which is fine since this is how I interpreted it anyhow).
Mynts, you have an work-around either way. Enjoy your life as a goblin (I'm sorry man).
- Gauss
I don't disagree with James. But like I said that is not RAW.
There is no other way to read, "equipment resizes to match your new size."
If they want the RAW and RAI to match it should just say it will resize to maintain your current size relativity.
The greater Problem I see: Was the fighter in question an elf, using the curved blade via weapon familiarity or does he really have the EWP for it?
If he used it via weapon familiarity, he now can't use it any more (or at least he's not proficient anymore)
On the weapon size, if your GM allows for 3.5 material, there are bracers of mighty grip (or something like that) that allow you to wield a weapon that is 1 size category bigger than you're supposed to be able to use, without penalty. Also monkey grip feat does the same thing.
aside, your reincarnation from an elf into a goblin must be difficult for such a noble race to fall into such a common one. It does sound pretty funny, long live the goblin king :^)
Gignere: Actually, there is another way to read, "equipment resizes to match your new size." And that way is just how James Jacobs read it. Unfortunately English is not mathematics and thus is imprecise to begin with. Let me put it to you another way: Define 'resizes to match'? My (and James Jacobs) definition = it maintains size parity. Yours is that if changing to medium all equipment changes to medium regardless of what size it originally was.
Umbranus: Just like human's bonus feat it should not go away with reincarnation. The mind is still elven, just the body is different.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: Gignere: Actually, there is another way to read, "equipment resizes to match your new size." And that way is just how James Jacobs read it. Unfortunately English is not mathematics and thus is imprecise to begin with. Let me put it to you another way: Define 'resizes to match'? My (and James Jacobs) definition = it maintains size parity. Yours is that if changing to medium all equipment changes to medium regardless of what size it originally was.
Umbranus: Just like human's bonus feat it should not go away with reincarnation. The mind is still elven, just the body is different.
- Gauss
That is sure one convoluted way to read that sentence. If you resize something to not match your new size. Than you matched it to your new size. Like I said it is likely RAI that different sized weapons retain their relative size differences, but that is not what was written.
They could have just as easily wrote all gear resizes to retain size relativity or parity.
This is like the Flurry of Blows thing all over again only worse because it is more clear if you haven't played the game at all and read that sentence, it can only mean that things will change to match your new size.
Take that sentence out of the context of the game. Say for a wedding dress, someone loses 10 lbs, and I say I resized it to match your new size. You would expect that the dress will fit the persons new measurements. Not that you retain size relativity.
Actually gignere, there are at least a few people here who can read the exact same thing as you and come to a different conclusion. That does not mean that you are automatically right and everyone else is wrong. Now having said that, lets use logic! Assume a character using an oversized weapon normally, say a titan mauler using a large longsword. the barbarian gets resized, does the sword all of a sudden shrink to match what a proper longsword is supposed to be, or retain its intended size difference in comparison to the barbarian?
#1; The barbarian goes from say medium to large, and the weapon changes from large to large, no longer being useful, nor the right size for him nor matching his changes, but becomes "true" to his size.
#2; The barbarian goes from say medium to large, and the weapon changes from large to huge, staying as a two-handed weapon, now the right size for him and matching his changes. It matches his new size.
To throw in a new kink in the logic, what do we do when we take into account the ability 'use oversized weapon' that giants have? Is it matched to his size, or his hand size?
last point, about the wedding dress, you assume that the dress matches from the beginning, so its not like the elven blade that is to big. Now if you had a dress that was made a size to small, then you lost a size, you would not say " I've resized it to you", and shrink it one more size. You would say, "I've resized it to your changes, but it is still too small.
Eather way, for the OP, just have the gm say that the blade was on his body as he died, and as he was reincarnated, the blade shrunk to match his spirit (now a goblin) as it was still on his original body.
Last thing... GOBLINS ARE GREAT! WHY WOULD BEING REINCARNATED AS A GOBO BE BAD?? D8
Im confused...
Gobo Horde wrote: Actually gignere, there are at least a few people here who can read the exact same thing as you and come to a different conclusion. That does not mean that you are automatically right and everyone else is wrong. Now having said that, lets use logic! Assume a character using an oversized weapon normally, say a titan mauler using a large longsword. the barbarian gets resized, does the sword all of a sudden shrink to match what a proper longsword is supposed to be, or retain its intended size difference in comparison to the barbarian?
#1; The barbarian goes from say medium to large, and the weapon changes from large to large, no longer being useful, nor the right size for him nor matching his changes, but becomes "true" to his size.
#2; The barbarian goes from say medium to large, and the weapon changes from large to huge, staying as a two-handed weapon, now the right size for him and matching his changes. It matches his new size.
To throw in a new kink in the logic, what do we do when we take into account the ability 'use oversized weapon' that giants have? Is it matched to his size, or his hand size?
last point, about the wedding dress, you assume that the dress matches from the beginning, so its not like the elven blade that is to big. Now if you had a dress that was made a size to small, then you lost a size, you would not say " I've resized it to you", and shrink it one more size. You would say, "I've resized it to your changes, but it is still too small.
Eather way, for the OP, just have the gm say that the blade was on his body as he died, and as he was reincarnated, the blade shrunk to match his spirit (now a goblin) as it was still on his original body.
Last thing... GOBLINS ARE GREAT! WHY WOULD BEING REINCARNATED AS A GOBO BE BAD?? D8
Im confused...
They should change the RAW then, because like I said it can easily be written as "gear resizes to maintain size relativity with your new size".
There will be no confusion at all.
If you need to use in game examples, you are divining the RAI, and not taking the RAW.
If you have read my posts I agreed that how Gauss and James Jacobs rule it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation and is likely RAI, however they need to change the RAW so RAI=RAW.
Gignere the problem is that we think the language is fine and is RAW as it is. You read the same sentance and find a different result from what we are finding. Language is not an absolute (unfortunately).
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: Gignere the problem is that we think the language is fine and is RAW as it is. You read the same sentance and find a different result from what we are finding. Language is not an absolute (unfortunately).
- Gauss
I agree language is not absolute but do you not agree my revised wording is much clearer.
Gignere wrote: Gauss wrote: Gignere the problem is that we think the language is fine and is RAW as it is. You read the same sentance and find a different result from what we are finding. Language is not an absolute (unfortunately).
- Gauss
I agree language is not absolute but do you not agree my revised wording is much clearer. It's a good try, but it's too awkward. Try "If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes along with you." It's just as succinct as the current text, but makes it clear that the equipment changes the same amount as you.
Wow step away for a day and come back to this lol, Thanks for all the replies and such. For now I'm just going to be a goblin that is obsessed with fire using a +1 keen longsword (medium size) until i get something better later on... All in all a goblin fighter is nuts.
Just remember, your +1 keen longsword (medium size) causes you to have a -2penalty to attacks due to its being medium size.
- Gauss
yup, but I died at a point in the story where we don't have much time to really do anything other then reincarnate... so +1 keen over mundane, good thing fighters have large BAB lol
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