Ya surely different from a boyfriend/husband/lover right???
I'd feel really uncomfortable if someone felt like they had to stand up and help me with my coat, unless I was obviously struggling for whatever reason... it might be out of chivalry or niceness or whatever, but it's still kind of weird to me.
Women are capable. Assuming they need help, or offering unsolicited help, is presumptuous and patronizing.
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I'd still feel weirded out/personal space intrusion if my brother or my father or my girlfriend did that for me... I dunno, I've never experienced any of those things and they seem decidedly strange to me. Unless there was some reason to do them, of course (e.g., I'm injured/hands full/etc.)
I mean I understand it's done out of "chivalry" but it all seems really silly and strange to me. Uncomfortably so.
Good point DM, next time a waiter offers to fetch my coat, adjust my chair, offer me my napkin or defers to me in anyway I'm gonna show him whats what.
Patronizing people they are, offering unsolicited help like I'm a cripple... man I better show him whats what, they need a good shirt fronting for the grave insult...
:p
I don't think I've been to the same restaurants as you, because a waiter has never offered to do any of those things for me! I guess I'm just poor... maybe they do those things in fancy joints?
That said, waiters are hosts. They are expected to treat you well (which might include those things, but again--they seem odd to me).
Yeah well next time I go to a party and the Host says 'Hey, welcome, can I get you a drink?' I'll have to correct their presumption that I am unable to attend to my own rfereshment needs by throwing them in the swimming pool.
That will show them what happens when people are so patronising, presumptious, and offer me help unsolicited.
:)
(Yeah I have the pleasure at dining at quite a few nice establishments, but hey even in the more...rustic...places, the service is pretty good and they are fairly attentive, unless it's maccas)
Either you're jesting with me, or I really struck a cord with you--I'm not sure which. I think it's safe to say that a host/guest relationship is different than that of other relationships. A different social protocol is to be expected. It's not as though there's a one-size-fits-all way of dealing with folks. Situations warrant different behaviors.
Edit: I didn't notice the emoticons.
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... Shifty, why are you being all silly and slippery slope-ish, man? :( Or is it just silly? :p
Nobody's saying there's a problem with being nice and offering help, just that offering something purely based on someone's gender* is probably not necessary. Offering something because you want to be polite or whatever is not the same thing...
* Unless you're in Bra's & Things, in which case it makes sense to ask the woman and not her unfortunate husband who has been dragged in there with her :)
I'm jesting pretty hardcore for sure.
What I a getting at is that in a number of social environments the man is very much playing host and rather than being patronising/presumptious is actually about deference and subservience.
If I invite a woman to a social outing then I expect to likewise be hosting that person, and ensuring that they are being attended to and looked after. Similarly, I would expect to ensure my grandparents were looked after if I was out with them, as a mark of deference and respect.
I'm not showing off my MACHO by ensuring they are being looked after, drink in hand, and all their needs attended to by any stretch.
If it were a stranger I wouldn't be pulling chairs out for them, but it might be situationally appropriate for someone I already know.
To simply blanket statement that it is odd/wierd for someone to attend another persons needs is in itself odd, because people do this stuff for us every day and we don't accuse them of being patronising.
When I stay at a nice hotel and the doorman attends the door and the concierge enquires about the carriage of my luggage... I don't get offended, and neither would you surely?
Side-note, I don't mind going into Bras N Things, fine shop, no worries... been in there plenty of times and have enjoyed every visit.
The Concept is to make life easier on the Women in ones life.
Heck, I worked as a Coat Checker at my Cousins' Restaurant and had a She Coon of Women's Lib Style Encounter. I was paid to take the Coats of Women while my Co-Worker took their names and the Men's Coats. And I had a woman chew me up one side and the other.
To simply blanket statement that it is odd/wierd for someone to attend another persons needs is in itself odd, because people do this stuff for us every day and we don't accuse them of being patronising.
I didn't mean to say that it is odd. I meant to say that I think it's odd. Meaning, I don't understand it. Certainly there are situations that warrant that sort of deference. As I said, different behaviors are appropriate for different circumstances.
When I stay at a nice hotel and the doorman attends the door and the concierge enquires about the carriage of my luggage... I don't get offended, and neither would you surely?
Not at all, but again that's his job. He is providing a service (again, guest/host).
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It's one thing to play the host when you invite someone out - that's just politeness, not chivalry. Whether you invited your girlfriend out on a date or your best mate over to play a new video game or your grandparents over to visit your new home, it's common courtesy to make sure they're comfortable, aren't hungry or thirsty, or whatever...
But EVEN IF it was a family member or friend or partner, I'd still feel weird if they stood up to take my coat or pull out my chair. Because, uhh, I don't really understand why you'd do that, basically. It's not like it's difficult for me to take off a coat or sit in a chair. And if you're doing it just because I'm a woman then that's even worse. Like DM said, it seems presumptuous.
@Azaelas: But why women in particular? If women need help taking their coats off I'm sure men would appreciate it too. *shrug*
I don't understand why people would get offended by a coat checker though. Like... that's your job. To take coats and make sure people can reclaim them again. wut?
When they take your coat, its to either put it on a coatrack for you (because you may or may not know where to put it, their job as a host os to do that stuff), OR to hold it whilst you adjust your chair or whatever else you are doing - ie providing assistance whilst your hands are erstwhile engaged. And yes you do take mens coats too if you are the host, or are hosting the person as a guest (ie I sometimes have to host guests and digitaries through work, male and female, likewise sometimes I am the guest being hosted) even though it might not actually be a function YOU are running.
The chair likewise is done as a host, I wouldn't see a lady about to take a seat at my local coffee joint and duck out ot the line to pull a chair out for her, that would be nuttier than squirrel droppings.
Women in particular was simply because of the role they played in society. That is the fact that if you have 10 Men per Woman the Society will die off quickly. While 10 Women per Man could keep the the Society for a while.
I know it is odd to say but it was the original concept.
I forgot to address something in my previous response, Shifty. No one is accusing you (or anyone else for that matter) of intending to patronize someone. I sincerely doubt you'd do that on purpose. I assume you mean well, but you must understand why someone would take offense to that sort of behavior. If it's a family member or what not, they're probably used to it and appreciative for it, but a stranger might not be so understanding.
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The only times I've ever handed my coat over to someone was in a place like a museum or restaurant, and I took my coat off and then handed it to them. To me, it would feel bizarre for someone to help me take my coat off.
Like I mentioned earlier, is this maybe a generational difference?
@Azaelas: LOL. Well I'd hope we as a society could move beyond something as base as that, seeing as with our however many billion people we're in no danger of something like that ever occurring :)
(Although frankly you're kind of screwed either way. It'd wind up with a genetic bottleneck in a generation or three and that'd be even more problematic...)
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Rather than be offended, they might consider just saying 'no thanks', and simple as that the problem is gone, no one is then offended, no drama ensues, and no one gets hit with a cricket bat over it.
:)
The idea is the Longer a Society stays the more chances there are to get new blood into the mix.
I am 19 so I don't think it is Generational. I think it is more of the Upbringing one has. I mean here in Southwest Missouri it isn't uncommon for people to hold the Door while someone is walking to it even when they are a little bit out.
It also is common to see men opening Car Doors assisting with Jackets and such. Though it also isn't Uncommon to see men helping women in ways that would be odd for earlier generations. Such as a Man helping his Sister, friend, or Mate with Zipping up their Dress.
I agree, it'd be better to communicate the problem than to foster a resentment over it.
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Ah but Shifty, you'd be surprised at the amount of men who take offense to a woman saying "no thanks" in a lot of situations - "I'm just trying to be nice, why are you so cold!" ...
Why can't everyone be nice to each other and respect each other all the time?... ._.
EDIT: Oh, and to be clear, I wouldn't get offended at someone doing the things we've talked about here, although I would probably give them a very weird look at the least.
Well I can say here in Missouri you never know what to expect. I literally watch a Bar Fight that ended up going from guys getting in each others faces to them debating on why they were in the Wrong and Right. No Punches. No Kicks. Only Words.
It was common in this Pub/Bar. Though admittedly that might have been my doing after I literally hit a guy over the head with a chair then hit his buddy with a Chair...
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Sometimes because of varying ideas of respect and nicety - there are women who consider it disrespectful if the man they are with (for whatever reason) doesn't hold the door/stand up/get the coat. And then there are those who consider it disrespectful if he does.
A 'no thanks' or 'would you please' dpending on her mindset, instead of just acting miffed because of the man not meeting her expectation would probably help (as would, of course accepting this instead of being miffed on side of the man).
Why can't everyone be nice to each other and respect each other all the time?... ._.
But isn't that the problem here? A range of behaviours have been attributed to being respectful, and those same behaviours have also been labeled as presumptuous and patronising, and even you have suggested that said behaviours would draw a negative response from you... even if it was just a weird look. Where does that leave the person other than believing they have done the right thing and are now faced with a strange lady giving them dagger odd looks for no apparent reason.
I tend to take people as being genuine and not looking to cause me offence, and if they do manage to do something I am not a fan of then I tend to try give the benefit of the doubt (unless it is clear they are being a numpty).
That's just me though, but I reckon that is the beginning of mutual respect.
If some fellow wants to get all sand in his underpants when his offer of assistance is declined then fie upon him and all his houses, hes not a chap, he's an ill mannered cad and a bounder.
Don't get me started on Ayn Rand.
So speaking of videogames.... :-)
I watched the 1st episode and found it fairly thought provoking. The subject/object dichotomy made sense to me. It's interesting how often when you look for it you can see that women are acted upon instead of being the actor. I find myself often agreeing with 90% of each video she had previously produced. It seems that at the end the conclusions sometimes reach a bit.
As an example, her use of the damsel in distress trope as an issue is fine. I agree that it can be overdone and I see her point that it reduces the female to an object contested over by the two males. Then she takes the step to say the rescuer (Mario) is motivated by a return of his property. Setting aside the difficulty of ascribing a motive to a set of pixels in a story less platformer, that idea discounts a whole host of possible positive motives for setting off for the rescue; ie. love, a sense of justice or right, etc. I look forward to more from her. Even when I don't agree, she provokes thought.
On a side note, I feel vaguely guilty when I watch her videos, because I usually spend part of them thinking I find her very attractive. I console myself with the knowledge that its also attributable to the fact that part of my attraction is that she's intelligent and well spoken.
BUt did any of us even care what Mario's "motivation" was? Weren't those cutscenes just some annoying garbage put in that we had to sit through until we could get back to what mattered which was squashing things, collecting coins, and eating mushrooms?
Don't feel guilty by the way, there's nothing wrong with finding someone attractive.
I don't agree with a lot of what Sarkeesian says, and on balance I don't think I'll be watching the rest of the series. That Twilight one is just plain sillysauce.
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She also goes out of her way to try and shame the other side. It's that sort of thing that really hurts the feminist cause.
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I for one LOVE chivalry. If we are out together feel free to help me with my coat, my chair, or rise together with me if I am leaving. There IS inappropriate chivalry... but men and women get too confused by the conflicting messages being given them about what is appropriate. If I had to have one or the other set of behavior I would prefer he err on the side of being too chivalrous and I will just tell him in as kind a way as I can he didn't need to do that. But I curse radical feminism every time I am hurrying toward a door or elevator with my arms full and a man just lets the door shut in my face. That girl mad at the coat checker is just as confused as the man who let the door shut in my face...
I feel strangely happy at that statement...
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There IS inappropriate chivalry... but men and women get too confused by the conflicting messages being given them about what is appropriate.
Therein lies the problem. There are women who are indifferent to you holding a door open for them, there are women who get angry at you if you hold a door open for them, and there are women who get angry at you if you don't hold a door open for them.
The obvious answer to solving sexism is to immediately cease the production and use of doors.
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Yeah just watched the twighlight one and my inital though was Huh? I mean Apparently disliking the way vampires are presented in that makes me anti woman? Please someone correct me if Ive missed something?
I'd actually agree with her somewhat. Edward is a creepy manipulative controlling overprotective stalker.
I also prefer vampires that are violent and actually want to kill people and drink their blood.
So...am I sexist or not?
(As an aside, it's pretty unfair to blame Twilight for having "good guy" vampires, since those have existed in all sorts of media for years and years now. The Vampire Chronicles, Angel, True Blood, The Vampire Diaries...all of these have "good" vampire characters.)
He is, but many of us already know this without the need for her to point it out to us. That's been my complaint against the series for as long as I've known about it. It masquerades itself as a "romance" or love story when it's anything but. /endrant
But I curse radical feminism every time I am hurrying toward a door or elevator with my arms full and a man just lets the door shut in my face. That girl mad at the coat checker is just as confused as the man who let the door shut in my face...
It's kind of a bald assumption to blame "radical feminists" for a man letting a door slam in your face. Maybe the guy is just a jerk like the ones who insist on leaving the toilet seat up?
Time to face one honest truth. There is no such thing as a progressive movement that would have gone anywhere without its radicals breaking the walls, even if it's the moderates that ultimately cement the change in normative standards. And one person's radical is another's moderate. It all depends on your point of view.
Your right I am assuming about the door... but if they didn't get upset at people holding doors for them then there is a greater chance I wouldn't have it slammed in mine as more men would just do it without thinking.
I also don't think a guy who leaves the seat up is a jerk... just lazy (and inviting in bad chi).
Her other videos rubbed me the wrong way. Particularly this one. She's certainly not above criticism for this sort of generalization (about men).
Meh. I hate Edward for both reasons. I noticed how creepy he was without her help.
And she's right, anyway. Edward is all kinds of creepy.
But, she ignores that Bella was also an incredibly weak character.
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And she's right, anyway. Edward is all kinds of creepy.But, she ignores that Bella was also an incredibly weak character.
They're all incredibly weak characters...
The books are just .
The writing is shoddy, the characterization is...
Poor,
at best.
Don't even get me started on the grammar.
Completely unrelated to Anita Sarkeesian's critique, I read a review of the first book about the time the first movie came out in which the reviewer mentioned his wife throwing the book across the room in disgust at approximately 30 pages in, proclaiming she would 'never read that trash again'.
I made it to page 28 & thought to myself 'I know what finally did it!'
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And she's right, anyway. Edward is all kinds of creepy.But, she ignores that Bella was also an incredibly weak character.They're all incredibly weak characters...
The books are just .
The writing is shoddy, the characterization is...
Poor,
at best.
Don't even get me started on the grammar.Completely unrelated to Anita Sarkeesian's critique, I read a review of the first book about the time the first movie came out in which the reviewer mentioned his wife throwing the book across the room in disgust at approximately 30 pages in, proclaiming she would 'never read that trash again'.
I made it to page 28 & thought to myself 'I know what finally did it!'
I love the fact that when they asked Pattison how he decided to act like that he said something along the lines of: "I've read the books and i just thought that the guy was a psychopath. So i played him like a psychopath".
Agreed, Fyre. Bella is as bad as Edward from a feminist point of view! Not to mention the absolutely terrible writing...
I got a couple of chapters in to the first book before I couldn't force myself to read any more.
There are also bad from a human point of veiw...
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Agreed, Fyre. Bella is as bad as Edward from a feminist point of view! Not to mention the absolutely terrible writing...
I got a couple of chapters in to the first book before I couldn't force myself to read any more.
But, ... the problem with Anita Sarkeesian's video on Twilight is not that she Slams the books for what is wrong with them from a feminist POV, but she is telling me, as a man, the one reason why I should hate the books - complete with a "Repeat After Me."
Do Men need that level of "hand holding"?
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I don't have time to re-watch right now, but like I said before, I got the impression it was targeted more at the other Youtubers she referenced rather than all men ever.
That said, it's probably a problem with the marketing rather than the message itself, if you get my drift. Good message, bad execution. Especially with Youtube videos, you often find yourself preaching to the choir in an attempt to keep your subscribers... and that includes the "style" of video presentation you create for yourself too.
For example, Azaelas posted a video earlier in this thread (I believe?) with a cartoon squirrel doing an angry rant about door holding and various things. I stopped watching it early because I found it obnoxious, both because of the voice and also because of the way they worded things... fundamentally I agreed with a fair amount of what they were saying but it was too annoying an execution for me to stick with.
Don't get me wrong, not trying to say that Sarkeesian is correct in giving the impression you got - if that's what you (and others) took away from it that's not exactly helpful - just have to try and not throw the baby out with the bathwater I guess.