Leaning, wands, and automatically hitting

[seiken]

I am new, and am GMing for some new players. A situation came up last night that I wasn't sure how to handle since I can't find any rules for it.

Our sorcerer was behind a pillar that took up a full square. He wanted to lean out from behind it and fire his wand of magic missile, then stop leaning so that he was behind the pillar again.

The way I looked at it is he is using a move action to lean, then a standard to fire, then would need another move to stop leaning (making this impossible with the actions available to him), but this was just a guess. If he was still technically standing behind the pillar, and occupying that square, how could he attack from the square adjacent? I told the player he couldn't do it, and it felt bad. I want them to be able to try anything.

How would you have handled it? No extra move action, but some sort of DEX check to pull off the tricky leaning move? No DEX check at all, but a penalty on the attack roll? Both? If a penalty on the attack roll, I wasn't sure how this would work with magic missile since it hits automatically (there is no roll).

How would you handle it with a bow or crossbow instead of magic missile?

Also about wands, do they need a free/empty hand to use (like when casting a spell), or can you use a wand while you have a staff or crossbow in your other hand?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

[LazarX]

Tell the sorcerer that after all is said and done, he gets the cover bonus for the pillar and that's that.

[Jiggy]

Hm... Depends a bit on the actual positioning. If memory serves, you only need line of sight from one corner of your own square (but don't quote me on that), which would mean one of the following:

1. He doesn't need to "lean" because that's already abstracted into the ability to aim from one corner of his own square, or

2. The target is so far out of line of sight that he needs to actually leave his square anyway, making the whole "leaning" thing moot.

[Grick]

seiken wrote:

Also about wands, do they need a free/empty hand to use (like when casting a spell), or can you use a wand while you have a staff or crossbow in your other hand?

Wands: "To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area."

It's a free action to let go of a weapon with one hand, so even if he was wielding a crossbow with both hands, he could free action to wield it with one hand, move action to draw the wand, standard action to fire the wand. (And free action to drop the wand, and free action to put his other hand back on the crossbow, if he likes) Don't forget most crossbows can be used one-handed.

[seiken]

LazarX wrote:

Tell the sorcerer that after all is said and done, he gets the cover bonus for the pillar and that's that.

I don't fully understand this. Are you saying just tell him he can't do it (the leaning move), but he's getting cover so that's the trade off for hiding behind the pillar?

[CuttinCurt]

Yep lazar is right. If the sorcerer stayed behind the pillar, he gets full cover. Since he leaned out to fire, he gets partial cover. (this is if you allow it, but since he is using a move action to do the leaning, I think it is fine)

I believe the cover rules are in the core rule book pg 195-196. Look at these before granting him cover, as that condition provides other benefits you might not think the sorcerer deserves.

Check it out and see. Here is what I think is most relevant.

Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall
no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to
creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can
ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.
Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can’t execute
an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover
relative to you.

Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus
on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note
that spread effects can extend around corners and thus
negate this cover bonus.

Cover and Stealth Checks: You can use cover to make a
Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment
to make a Stealth check.

Partial Cover: If a creature has cover, but more than half
the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to
AC and a +1 bonus on Ref lex saving throws. This partial
cover is subject to the GM’s discretion.

[seiken]

Jiggy wrote:

Hm... Depends a bit on the actual positioning. If memory serves, you only need line of sight from one corner of your own square (but don't quote me on that), which would mean one of the following:

1. He doesn't need to "lean" because that's already abstracted into the ability to aim from one corner of his own square, or

2. The target is so far out of line of sight that he needs to actually leave his square anyway, making the whole "leaning" thing moot.

Okay, I get this, but let's say the sorcerer, the pillar, and the bad guy are all lined up so none of the sorcerer's corners can reach his enemy's corners. It doesn't have to be a pillar. Maybe he is trying to fire through a door from behind the adjacent wall, like so...

....S
XXX[]XXX

....B

S is the sorcerer, B is the bad guy, and [] is the open door space. X is a solid wall.

[seiken]

Grick wrote:

CuttinCurt wrote:

Thank you very much to both of you as well. This should hopefully be enough to get me through this type of fight in the future.

[LazarX]

Basically the sorcerer can not move the way he wants to to hit the baddie with a spell or wand without opening himself out to the possibility of counter attack. He may position himself so that he may take an advantage of cover bonus, but no he can't pop out shoot, and then pop back into an unassailable position all in one turn without special mechanics being invoked.

[cartmanbeck]

Though it's not technically allowable with a wand since it's a standard action to use a wand, as opposed to counting as "one ranged attack", you could house-rule that he could use the sniping rules to do this. He would essentially use a full-round action to lean out, cast with the wand, and re-stealth. If his stealth skill is low, though, he won't be able to re-hide behind the pillar.

Sniping wrote:

Sniping

If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

[Jiggy]

seiken wrote:

Okay, I get this, but let's say the sorcerer, the pillar, and the bad guy are all lined up so none of the sorcerer's corners can reach his enemy's corners. It doesn't have to be a pillar. Maybe he is trying to fire through a door from behind the adjacent wall, like so...

....S
XXX[]XXX

....B

S is the sorcerer, B is the bad guy, and [] is the open door space. X is a solid wall.

The visual helps a lot, thanks. :)

Okay, for what you want, you can't do it all in one turn without some kind of special ability or houserule (variant of Shot on the Run?).

[LazarX]

The key thing to remember here is that wands are not bows, they are not pistols, they are not slings.

They're essentially for most purposes treated just as you would standard spellcasting of whatever spell you're shooting off.

[Jiggy]

Fun tidbit: What the sorcerer wanted to do horizontally, you can actually do vertically with no special talent. Find yourself some kind of barrier (low wall, foxhole, whatever). Drop prone behind it (no line of sight to you). On your turn, you stand (move action), cast/activate/attack (standard action), then drop prone again (free action). In order to return fire, the enemy must either get behind your cover with you or ready an action to hit you on your turn.

[Matthew Morris]

Jiggy's right about Shot on the run, (wand on the run)

In core mechanics, I believe it would be.

Round 1: Step into the gap (move action) fire wand (standard action).
Round 2: Fire wand (standard action), step out of gap (move action).

So he'd have cover from right before his action in round 1, and be exposed until the end of his action in round 2.

Net result is he's under full cover every other round. He still gets the advantage of acting every round, and gets cover half the time.

To put it in 'simulationist' terms. The sorcerer is stepping out hoping no one is on the other side of the wall with an axe, taking the time to select a target, focusing, saying the command word. Not bad for 6 sections of action.

[seiken]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Jiggy's right about Shot on the run, (wand on the run)

In core mechanics, I believe it would be.

Round 1: Step into the gap (move action) fire wand (standard action).
Round 2: Fire wand (standard action), step out of gap (move action).

So he'd have cover from right before his action in round 1, and be exposed until the end of his action in round 2.

Net result is he's under full cover every other round. He still gets the advantage of acting every round, and gets cover half the time.

To put it in 'simulationist' terms. The sorcerer is stepping out hoping no one is on the other side of the wall with an axe, taking the time to select a target, focusing, saying the command word. Not bad for 6 sections of action.

I like this.

[DMFTodd]

In the RAW, there is no "leaning" around the corner. You definitely can't move, standard, move as you note.

The rules you're looking for are the cover rules:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#cover

So the PC might be able to shoot the wand, it just depends on where the target is. The target may or not be able to shoot back. A discussion on the same topic is here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5st2?Casting-Around-Corners#8