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I'm going to be running (for the first time) a pre-fab scenario that involves an enemy sorcerer who is supposed to cast solid fog on the party and an enemy rogue who is supposed to make heavy use of spring attack (according to the listed tactics). Now, it seems to me that solid fog would make spring attack useless since...
A) It would halve the rogues movement to 15 ft, which is not enough to use consecutive spring attacks. Spring attack would essentially become: Move 10ft to hit a dude and move 5 feet away from the dude who will just 5 foot step to full attack you next turn.
and
B) Solid Fog (as per the fog cloud effect) means that the rogue couldn't see anyone further than 5ft away and therefore couldn't target them with a sneak attack.
So the outlined tactics seem to render the rogue useless (she has no equipment or abilities that render her immune to fog cloud). What am I missing? The best I could come up with is that the rogue could use hearing to locate a target well enough to move toward them with spring attack, then when within 5ft attack the target, and finally complete the spring attack by moving away. However, that only solves problem B.
If it comes down to it, I'll just ignore the listed tactics and have the sorcerer cast Fog Cloud Instead, but it seems like a waste.
Cloud spells destroy rogues ridiculously well. It's a blatant problem that's existed all through 3rd edition that PF did not correct, sadly. Even obscuring mist would screw the rogue over.
Easist solution? Have the NPC rogue dip into Oracle for a level and get Water Sight. It'll let him see just fine in fog and mist, allowing sneak attacks and seeing where the PCs are. Not sure if it'll remove the movement penalty of Solid Fog by RAW, but it SHOULD, in my opinion...
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According to the Blind condition you can make a DC10 acrobatics check to move at more than half speed, but fall prone if you fail. Since the fog is forcing you to move more slowly due to inability to see, I presume such a check exists for it as well.
Being that they're a rogue, I assume they have at least a +9 acrobatics mod and thus can't fail this check.
If they have the Shadow Strike feat they can sneak attack through the partial concealment of an adjacent foe. If they have Fast Stealth they can stealth on the approach, lose it for the strike, then stealth on the exit as they hit total concealment again.
EDIT: Also, it's a DC20 perception check to notice someone who's invisible to you but not hiding. Make this check and the rogue can know where their opponents are even if hidden in the fog, assuming those opponents aren't smart enough to start sneaking themselves.
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Thanks to both of you, but unfortunately, a careful reading of the Solid Fog spell reveals that the movement penalty is due to the physical resistance the fog creates, rather than a visual impairment. The main indication of this quality is that the spell slows your fall speed, which has nothing to do with sight. Now, if I decide to just adjust the scenario outside what's written, I do really like the Water Sight and/or Shadow Strike idea (and the rogue does already have Fast Stealth), so those are good if I'm just using regular old Fog Cloud. But it looks like I'm still out of luck Re: Solid Fog.
A) It would halve the rogues movement to 15 ft, which is not enough to use consecutive spring attacks. Spring attack would essentially become: Move 10ft to hit a dude and move 5 feet away from the dude who will just 5 foot step to full attack you next turn.
and
Actually the two abilities work quite well together.
Solid fog has this: "A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog."
So the rogue gets to jump in from 10 ft a way, make an attack, move away 5 ft.
The enemies cannot 5-ft step and full-attack in return, they cannot charge with hindered movement, and while moving up and taking a standard attack is viable, it is only for those in range to locate him.
Give the Rogue some boots of springing and striding (appropriate given his tactics). Or have the caster put Expeditious Retreat on him (doubles his movement).
Then either the Improved Blindsight feat, or level of Oracle (depending on level) to get past the concealment factor.
Springing Sneak Attack with greater than 10' movement away.
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The party would likely have to find a away out of the spell, use listen checks to locate the rogue and deal with miss chance, or dispel the spell. They will have options.
Should make an interesting encounter.
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A) It would halve the rogues movement to 15 ft, which is not enough to use consecutive spring attacks. Spring attack would essentially become: Move 10ft to hit a dude and move 5 feet away from the dude who will just 5 foot step to full attack you next turn.
and
Actually the two abilities work quite well together.
Solid fog has this: "A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog."
So the rogue gets to jump in from 10 ft a way, make an attack, move away 5 ft.
The enemies cannot 5-ft step and full-attack in return, they cannot charge with hindered movement, and while moving up and taking a standard attack is viable, it is only for those in range to locate him.
Good call on the no 5ft step thing. The only trouble is that I still can't do consecutive spring attacks since spring attack requires at least 10 feet of movement before the attack. So I'd safely be 5 feet away and out of range of their full attack, but for my second turn after a spring attack, I'd have to choose between attacking again (which would require moving within their threat range and staying there) or moving away (which gives up a whole turn).
Expeditious Retreat is personal range. But the rogue could certainly get a wand or scroll of it with use magic device.
Other options: I think Nimble Moves / Acrobatic Steps feats would work to lessen the amount of squares he takes double movement in? Also consider the Feather Step spell, which the sorc CAN cast on him (or use on him via a wand/scroll).
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I'm going to be running (for the first time) a pre-fab scenario that involves an enemy sorcerer who is supposed to cast solid fog on the party and an enemy rogue who is supposed to make heavy use of spring attack (according to the listed tactics). Now, it seems to me that solid fog would make spring attack useless since...If the rogue can sneak attack those with concealment (i.e. shadowstrike feat) and the rogue starts 5' away from the target..
The rogue moves 5' (costing 10' of movement) using stealth at full speed.
Rogue attacks via spring attack (possibly for sneak dice).
The rogue finished moving 5-10' (costing 10-20' of movement) using stealth again at full speed.Consider the grid
123
ABC
DEFWhere the victim is at "E" and the rogue is at "2". The rogue moves to "B" attacks, then moves back to "2" and then either to "1" or "4".
The victim moves to "B" and only has a standard action left to attack, if they see the rogue who has concealment... otherwise they need to pick a square (with a supposed 30' move could be 1, 2, 3 or even directly above 2 off the grid and out of range).
But again the rogue needs to be able to sneak attack those with concealment, and likely should not have the penalty for stealth at full speeds. You might need to adjust the stat blocks if the former is not the case and evaluate the later one way or the other.
-James
I like the "5' in solid fog = 10' normal so spring attack works" idea, though I'm not sure that's right by RAW. Still, I might rule it ok (I'm the boss after all, hehe) since it makes sense conceptually (the 10' minimum is required to gain the momentum and surprise necessary to hit and move away before the enemy can attack, but if everyone is moving more slowly due to the solid fog, 5' should be ok)
Goz Mask (8000gp, Inner Sea World Guide) eliminates the visual effect of Fog spells.
Freedom of Movement (CRB p287) will allow full move speed.
- Gauss
Since you already have the Sorcerer casting solid fog, why not throw Haste on the rogue for +30' of movement.
Or
Overland flight, which has a longer duration and is another very popular Sorcerer spell. Speed becomes 40' giving you the 10 in and 10 out that you are looking for. Also adds the 3d element of finding/guessing where the rogue went.
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Solid Fog screws movement over completely, due to the "poor visibility" hampered movement condition. Solid Fog states that you can't move faster than half speed. Hampered Movement states that every 5 feet you try to move costs 10 feet of your speed. These are two non-overlapping conditions, and both need to be applied.
This results in the average 30ft speed human only able to move 7.5ft worth of actual distance (rounded down to 5ft) with a single move action, or 15 ft with a withdraw action.
The OP is more applicable with obscuring mist/fog cloud. You can't make 5ft steps in poor visibility regardless, not even with nimble moves (which mentions difficult terrain specifically, not hampered movement in general).
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Good call on the no 5ft step thing. The only trouble is that I still can't do consecutive spring attacks since spring attack requires at least 10 feet of movement before the attack. So I'd safely be 5 feet away and out of range of their full attack, but for my second turn after a spring attack, I'd have to choose between attacking again (which would require moving within their threat range and staying there) or moving away (which gives up a whole turn).
+10 movement speed from somewhere would give you the ability to do it consecutively, assuming you're just using fog clouds.
A potion of expeditious retreat would work here.
I don't think you can make potions of personal only spells...
I don't think you can make potions of personal only spells...
you are probably right. make it a wand of expeditious retreat with only a few charges and UMD it. you can always claim it was used before to get the +2 familiarity bonus.