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Being a frequenter of a store that utilizes a table fee, I feel the need to chime in here. I should note that the store I play at charges a table fee for all games, not just for when we run PFS.
An establishment charging a fee for table time, as many have already addressed, is not a new thing. In fact, in my (possibly limited) experience, it has become quite common, as many gamers are choosing to purchase their products online for cheaper than retail prices - which they certainly have the right to do - but this does hurt the neighborhood game stores. It hurts some more, some less.
To compensate for this, many local game stores request a table fee. It is (basically) compensation for you taking up space in their store for a certain amount of time. I know in my personal experience, my FLGS is very busy, and when we are charged for PFS play, it is essentially ensuring us a table on one of their busy nights.
The table fee is not intended to be the ploy of some jerk store owner trying to make a few extra bucks off of gamers. It is simply a means to ensure they are making money on the night that 5+ players are taking up space in their establishment.
What the store DOES with the table fee varies. My store, in the case of PFS, pools the money together and the GM/table decides how it will be spent. If we have new players, we buy them dice. If we have a player who has been playing for awhile but still lacks a core book, we will buy him the book. (These decisions are left up to GM and table discretion).
The only issue I see with the implications of the OP's first post is that the store owner in his case is claiming the fee is for Paizo. If the owner said something like "To play PFS here, you have to pay $5" it is open to interpretation, but I personally do not interpret that as "I am a PFS representative from Paizo and we charge universally for gameplay."
TLDR; The store has a right to charge you for table space in their establishment. If you do not want to pay $5 to play there, start up a PFS group somewhere else. I encourage anyone to start a group, and if that is the reason pushing you, embrace it.
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Being a frequenter of a store that utilizes a table fee, I feel the need to chime in here. I should note that the store I play at charges a table fee for all games, not just for when we run PFS.
An establishment charging a fee for table time, as many have already addressed, is not a new thing. In fact, in my (possibly limited) experience, it has become quite common, as many gamers are choosing to purchase their products online for cheaper than retail prices - which they certainly have the right to do - but this does hurt the neighborhood game stores. It hurts some more, some less.
To compensate for this, many local game stores request a table fee. It is (basically) compensation for you taking up space in their store for a certain amount of time. I know in my personal experience, my FLGS is very busy, and when we are charged for PFS play, it is essentially ensuring us a table on one of their busy nights.
The table fee is not intended to be the ploy of some jerk store owner trying to make a few extra bucks off of gamers. It is simply a means to ensure they are making money on the night that 5+ players are taking up space in their establishment.
What the store DOES with the table fee varies. My store, in the case of PFS, pools the money together and the GM/table decides how it will be spent. If we have new players, we buy them dice. If we have a player who has been playing for awhile but still lacks a core book, we will buy him the book. (These decisions are left up to GM and table discretion).
The only issue I see with the implications of the OP's first post is that the store owner in his case is claiming the fee is for Paizo. If the owner said something like "To play PFS here, you have to pay $5" it is open to interpretation, but I personally do not interpret that as "I am a PFS representative from Paizo and we charge universally for gameplay."
TLDR; The store has a right to charge you for table space in their establishment. If you do not want to pay $5 to play there, start up a PFS...
The store charging is not the issue. It is the store saying charging a table fee is required by PFS organized play as well as saying that the store owner is a Venture Officer when he or she is not. Those are the issues, not charging for a table.
The store charging is not the issue. It is the store saying charging a table fee is required by PFS organized play as well as saying that the store owner is a Venture Officer when he or she is not. Those are the issues, not charging for a table.
Quoted separately and bolded for emphasis since we've gone a page and this is still being debated...
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Unless Paizo (read Mike Brock) decides to specifically request this fellow stop using the title, then there really isn't anything anyone can do about it other than stop frequenting that store.
There isn't any point in really discussing it further unless or until Mike decides to chime in on whether he likes it or not.
It could be, that Mike is conversing with the area V-C and letting the V-C try to handle it before he steps in and says or does anything on it. Mike doesn't like to step on regional coordinator toes, so lets just wait awhile and see how this shakes out.
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as well as saying that the store owner is a Venture Officer when he or she is not
As I understand it, the store owner is not saying that he's the Venture Officer. In fact, I don't think that he's being specific about it.
Let's be clear here:A nearby hobby store is charging 5$ to play for PFS ... but he's implied that it is a 'part' of PFS, not his policy. He's also implying that he's the 'head person' to deal with for PFS, not the venture captain. Understand, he's not said anything outright, but controls the system in his area with a tight fist.It sounds more to me like he's using "strong-arm" tactics, basicaly trying to make himself sound more important than he is. This is often the case, when a business person wants to push a particular client, and make it seem as though they don't have any choice. In a best-case scenario, it's unintentional. Worst-case, it comes across a little mobster-like:
If you's iz gonna play on dis side o' da tracks, you's is gonna play in my store, see? And I'm running things around here, see? And if you's play, you's gonna do it though me, see?
This should definitely be addressed by the local Venture Captain, or at least addressed with their assistance. Ultimately, the VC doesn't have True Authority, either, but, as chosen representatives of the company in question, they can act as a figurehead or spokesperson. The store owner could operate PFS games without the VC, but, hopefully he will see that it is strongly inappropriate to do so.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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This should definitely be addressed by the local Venture Captain, or at least addressed with their assistance. Ultimately, the VC doesn't have True Authority, either, but, as chosen representatives of the company in question, they can act as a figurehead or spokesperson. The store owner could operate PFS games without the VC, but, hopefully he will see that it is strongly inappropriate to do so.
Since it looks like you might have missed it.
The Real problem is he wants nothing from me as VC and in fact told me to my face that he already has a Venture Captain. He also tells them that he is the boss of PFS in the area. He tells the players that it is Paizo's requirement to charge for the game and he actively tries to undercut my lieutenants and I's work in the state. I am working on a way to work with him but as of yet he is still a potential problem.
I would never tell a store owner how to run his business and he also has every right to refuse to use my help but he doesn't have to right to try to ruin all other PFS games in the state.
I for one would find out when he schedules his games and hand out flyers telling the facts. I'd also schedule a large gameday in the city somewhere (big enough to have boons) and promote it heavily. If they players can be informed, and shown the "evil" of his ways, they might consider boycotting his store in the future.
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That said, real estate is expensive around here (Bay Area, CA) and so all the stores charge something. Usually $3 and judges get a little kickback (usually $5) and free admission. One store charges $5, but they give it back as store credit coupons so if you buy from them it's technically free.Not quite all the stores - one of the places I play regularly has table fees (although most of it goes back to the GM as store credit, which gets spent on flip-mats, miniatures, etc.), but another store doesn't actually charge (even though their website says that they do). And I play in a regular weekly (non-PFS) Pathfinder game at another store which doesn't charge (and even gives a discount to players for game-related purchases). I'll make some purchases at the stores (over $100 in the last month), although I do have Paizo subscriptions in order to get the free PDFs.
Ahhh, my bad. That's what I get for making blanket statements and assumptions!
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The store charging is not the issue. It is the store saying charging a table fee is required by PFS organized play as well as saying that the store owner is a Venture Officer when he or she is not. Those are the issues, not charging for a table.Quoted separately and bolded for emphasis since we've gone a page and this is still being debated...
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I suppose the part I find a bit muddled on this matter is that the OP describes that the store owner in question has "implied" these things. I am curious as to whether the owner literally said something like "This is PFS/Paizo's policy, not mine" or if it was simply interpreted that way by the OP (and possibly others?)
Is there any clarity on that, which I may have overlooked?
It is one thing for the store owner to literally claim the fee is requested by PFS/Paizo. It is entirely another to assume a request for a fee "to play PFS here" is the same thing.
If all this boils down to is a miss-communication between the OP and the store owner, the simplest solution would be to ask the store owner outright, for clarity. Right?
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I suppose the part I find a bit muddled on this matter is that the OP describes that the store owner in question has "implied" these things. I am curious as to whether the owner literally said something like "This is PFS/Paizo's policy, not mine" or if it was simply interpreted that way by the OP (and possibly others?)
Is there any clarity on that, which I may have overlooked?
VC Sean Hanlin's post upthread a bit indicates that this was more than implied. (See Eric Clingenpeel's quote of Sean, two posts before yours.)
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VC Sean Hanlin's post upthread a bit indicates that this was more than implied. (See Eric Clingenpeel's quote of Sean, two posts before yours.)I suppose the part I find a bit muddled on this matter is that the OP describes that the store owner in question has "implied" these things. I am curious as to whether the owner literally said something like "This is PFS/Paizo's policy, not mine" or if it was simply interpreted that way by the OP (and possibly others?)
Is there any clarity on that, which I may have overlooked?
Thanks for that, that was precisely what I was looking for.
Honestly a little scary. Not gunna lie.
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I'm going to put my "clefa" up front ... on my bench I have Yanma evolved to yanmega, horsea - seadra - kindra and magnemite rare-candied to magnezone with 5 energy..
I'll retreat clefa and put yanmega up... play judge (you now have the same number of cards as me. Kindra will do damage to your benched mega-pokemon and yanmega does another 70
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Wonderful news from Mr. Brock. I may not have stated clearly, that this situation is something that I'm walking into, not actively participating in yet. I wanted perspective (which I got in spades, thank you) before I initiated contact myself. Having run a biz myself that was heavily reliant on first impressions for long term loyalty, I didn't wish to go in guns blazing. I am very happy that Mike's stepping in, and hope to learn well from the progress therein.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I'm going to put my "clefa" up front ... on my bench I have Yanma evolved to yanmega, horsea - seadra - kindra and magnemite rare-candied to magnezone with 5 energy..
I'll retreat clefa and put yanmega up... play judge (you now have the same number of cards as me. Kindra will do damage to your benched mega-pokemon and yanmega does another 70
o_O
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o_OI'm going to put my "clefa" up front ... on my bench I have Yanma evolved to yanmega, horsea - seadra - kindra and magnemite rare-candied to magnezone with 5 energy..
I'll retreat clefa and put yanmega up... play judge (you now have the same number of cards as me. Kindra will do damage to your benched mega-pokemon and yanmega does another 70
I blame TK... you can too
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm going to put my "clefa" up front ... on my bench I have Yanma evolved to yanmega, horsea - seadra - kindra and magnemite rare-candied to magnezone with 5 energy..
I'll retreat clefa and put yanmega up... play judge (you now have the same number of cards as me. Kindra will do damage to your benched mega-pokemon and yanmega does another 70
I'll put Apple Jack up front, since she's the toughest from the get-go. Pinkie Pie stays on the bench since she forces a coin flip against confusion any time you use a power to affect my bench while she's there. Rainbow Dash's "20% Cooler" ability boosts all my damage by 20, which works well with Derpy Hooves' ability to drop things on random enemies each turn. If anything goes wrong, Twilight Sparkle can use her teleportation spell for free retreats as needed.
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Pokemon......what's that? I checked all my Bestiaries, as well as the Tome of Horrors, and can't find this creature anywhere.
No no no, you're doing it wrong. Pokemon is the genus, the individual creatures are the species. So basically, all the entries in the Bestiary are Pokemon. It's this generation's Pokedex, cause Professor Oak hasnt invented the electronic one that talks to you yet.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Professor Oak hasnt invented the electronic one that talks to you yet.
He'd have had it done by now, but he's still working on the mind probe so he can see everything you do and scold you if you try to ride your bike indoors.
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Pokemon......what's that? I checked all my Bestiaries, as well as the Tome of Horrors, and can't find this creature anywhere.
I heard Pokemon is something World of Warcrack introduced in their next expansion. Thank the gods for Crackfinder.....err I mean Pathfinder.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'll answer this under the assumption that this is a serious question.
Because PFS is often played by groups of people who don't know each other. Many people don't like random strangers showing up at their homes for games. Also, people are far less likely to go to a random stranger's home than to a game shop.
You have home games with people you know and trust. You have shop games when you toss an invite out to the world.
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We've often used ... what are they called ... "club rooms". Small rooms usually found at the base of multistory buildings that are open to its residents.
Once when you get comfortable with the locals you might start running games at people's homes anyhow. The custom of playing at stores is nonexistant in Finland. To this day only *one* PFS game was ever run in a FLGS.
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Bring it up at your next game. Most players have no trouble paying, $3-5 each is often less than the gas to get to the game.
If I suspect someone is genuinely struggling to pay the fee, we wave it or I'll cover it myself.
you need to change factions, a true Qadiran would never pay the fee himself :D
I like the store credit idea, or the donating to GMs idea. Players don't always seem to realize that GMs are buying scenarios $4/week, buying minis, buying flip-mats and/or map packs to run these scenarios.
It's great that they put in time and effort, and MONEY to run these things, don't forget your GMs :D
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I guess here in Sacramento we are extremely luckly.
Not only do we have an amazing store, The Mages Realm , that hosts 5 sessions of PFS a week (with 1-3 tables per session) the store does not charge to play, and credits GMs with one dollar for every player on the table!
That said, I wouldn't mind paying to play if that was my only option. I understand that FLGS need to stay open, and all the support they can find!