I don't, that is why I believe the unarmed strike is one weapon.
@Blackbloodtroll: Where are you getting the idea that unarmed attacks are somehow outside the iterative attack sequence? It doesn't matter if you have 100 hands, you can only make as many unarmed strikes as your BAB allows. TWF allows a maximum of 3 extra attacks and that's if you take the full feat chain.
BBT is singling out the monster feat Multiweapon Fighting which allows you one attack for every weapon you are holding, but it does not say that as written.
As written you get to bypass BAB for your secondary attacks. The 3.5 Marilith is an example of this.
PS:Yes you can use TWF to throw multiple weapons.I know that but apparently some people don't. Once you declare your primary hand any attack not coming from it is an off-hand attack. But the limit is still the number of attacks not the number of weapons.
I know. I just answered it for him though. He can refute my statement with a rules text or ......
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@ talonhawke: I'm going to ask you one thing and one thing only... Can you take a move action and a full action in the same turn? That should answer your question.That is nonsequiter to the issue at hand. Quick Draw allows me to draw those thrown weapons as a free action thus negating any move action required for anything.
So I ask you again, can I TWF with thrown weapons using my full BAB string?
My understanding is that quickdraw does let you use TWF with thrown weapons. A character with a BAB of +5 that has both quickdraw and TWF could throw 2 daggers with a full-attack action. These attacks would be made at +3/+3 prior to any adjustments for ability scores or weapon enhancements.
This character could start start the round with no weapons in hand and as long as they declare they are using TWF their feat combo would allow them to draw & throw both weapons as part of their full attack action.
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But here is the real question: can someone melee and range attack while TWF?
Assuming the character has the TWF, ITWF, and Quick Draw feats and armed with a longsword and a crap load of daggers:
A) two primary attacks with the longsword, first off hand melee with the dagger, followed by a ranged off hand with the dagger.
B) two primary attacks with the longsword, first off hand ranged with the dagger, second off hand quick draw attack (ranged or melee) with the dagger.
Note: the possibility of AoO is irrelevant for this discussion.
Yes. There is no reason why it would not work.
Yes hanger you can you don't declare your making a melee full attack or a ranged full attack.
So yes both A and B are viable options.
There was even a feat in 3.5 that allowed you to not provoke with a hand crossbow against enemies you hit with a rapier in the same round.
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I end my participation within the debate. I am not truly convinced either way. I personally am uncomfortable with the idea of the unarmed strike being several weapons and yet not. Again, I state, I understand that I may be wrong, but I surely hope not. I see it as unfair, as I cannot two weapon fight with one weapon, like the dwarven maulaxe, using the slashing and bludgeoning ends separately. Should the unarmed strike be treated as a double weapon, then I could agree without disdain.
I would like to see a two weapon fighting PC in PFS who only uses unarmed strikes.
How bbt is it unfair.
The only reason that it could be unfair would be if you could somehow enchant it for the cost of one item and not 2.5 items. In fact you would come out cheaper buying two maulaxes and enchanting them. outside of monk levels your damage is subpar.
Really how is it not fair that people can in fact throw a one-two punch?
What does that have to do with anything I posted?
Edit:sorry if that wasn't directed at me bbt
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Yes hanger you can you don't declare your making a melee full attack or a ranged full attack.
So yes both A and B are viable options.
There was even a feat in 3.5 that allowed you to not provoke with a hand crossbow against enemies you hit with a rapier in the same round.
That's what I was thinking too, just wanted to see if I was off or not. Thanks!
The rules never explicitly state one weapn only. If they do either cite them or apply your name to yourself.
@bbt you still haven't answered my question. How is it unfair?
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@ Talonhawke: The TWF rules very explicitly state that you can only use one other weapon. Once the first off-hand dagger leaves your hand you can no longer make any more TWF attacks per RAW, as you threw the weapon you were using for it. You can only ever throw one more weapon as a result of TWF, free action or no.
Multiweapon fighting has nothing to do with getting extra attacks, it merely lessens the penalty for using any weapons in an off-hand. Maybe by the RAI monsters should get an attack with all off-hand weapons but this is not what the feat says. The maralith does seem to support this notion but BBT was asking about TWF, as I understood it, not multiweapon fighting. If he was talking about MFW, then yes you can get an extra unarmed attack for each limb, but this would still count them as separate, unique weapons.
So, you're telling me that you can make iterative attacks by throwing multiple daggers or shuriken, but the moment you want to spend a round with an extra attack in that round by applying the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, you can't? That's silly.
EDIT: Fixed the sentence so it sounds right.
@ Talonhawke: The TWF rules very explicitly state that you can only use one other weapon. Once the first off-hand dagger leaves your hand you can no longer make any more TWF attacks per RAW, as you threw the weapon you were using for it. You can only ever throw one more weapon as a result of TWF, free action or no.
Multiweapon fighting has nothing to do with getting extra attacks, it merely lessens the penalty for using any weapons in an off-hand. Maybe by the RAI monsters should get an attack with all off-hand weapons but this is not what the feat says. The maralith does seem to support this notion but BBT was asking about TWF, as I understood it, not multiweapon fighting. If he was talking about MFW, then yes you can get an extra unarmed attack for each limb, but this would still count them as separate, unique weapons.
BBT started off with TWF, and then switched to MWF.
As for TWF only allowing one other weapon the fact that you can use it with thrown weapons disagrees with you. TWF allows you to get extra attacks.
Longsword
Dagger
Drop dagger, quick draw shortsword, continue the attack<----legal
If you are trying to argue that the restriction only applied to melee attacks then provide a rules quote.
Ok I can't copypasta using my phone but I shall direct you to the "special actions in combat" page on the pathfinder ogc and the improved twf feat page. These both state that you must make the attack(s) with the same off-hand weapon. I will link it in the morning if you are incapable of finding it for yourself.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)You are skilled at fighting with two weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
That says you get an extra attack with an off-hand weapon. It never says the first and second off-hand weapon have to be the same weapon.
Talonhawke, please read the TWF rules on the OGC. It states:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
That is patently false.
The exact quote is:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
That means that the weapon in your hand can be used in conjunction with TWF for an offhand attack.
Now if we go back to Improved TWF it says you can make another off-hand attack, but it never says you are restricted to the first off-hand weapon you attacked with.
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
Not there at all.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You are skilled at fighting with two weapons.Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
This to a small degree nmight back you up since it says with it.
But its definatly not a cut and dry no you can't use a second weapon.
especially in light of the fact that you can change weapons all day on a non twf full attack.
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Ok I can't copypasta using my phone but I shall direct you to the "special actions in combat" page on the pathfinder ogc and the improved twf feat page. These both state that you must make the attack(s) with the same off-hand weapon. I will link it in the morning if you are incapable of finding it for yourself.
I could agree with the argument that if you started throwing daggers with your off hand, you couldn't switch to throwing axes or javelins - you would have to stick with throwing daggers. BUT, if I throw a shuriken, and then have to walk over to pull it out of Butter's eye because I'm required to throw the exact same weapon, well, that just ain't gonna work.
LTR returning waits till the end of the round so there is no way possible to make a full attack with a returning weapon by throwing it.
So by that quote then TWF doesn't allow you to use armor spikes or boot-blades or even kicks or head-butts since they aren't weilded in a second hand.
And since flury is TWF monks can only punch with half there attacks in a flurry since they have to be using something in a hand for that half.
you want to talk RAW when it suits you RAW says you must when you weild the weapon in the off hand not one of those things can be in my hand and be used like they are meant to.
EDIT: of course by RAW nothing stops acting when dead so we have to use RAI more often than not.
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Yep, we went back to the "hand" discussion. I wish this subject would die.
Every time this comes up, I cringe.
Short answer, you are fully capable of two weapon fighting without a single "hand" coming into play.
You are also able to use all the two weapon fighting feats, without ever using the same weapon twice.
The fact that you can use thrown weapons still kills his argument.
It also mentions "an" off-hand weapon, never referencing a specific off-hand weapon.
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@ Talonhawke: Read the very first sentence of the first quote. "with THAT weapon" and as per the second quote "IT". This is all clearly talking about one weapon and one weapon only, hardly a "small-degree" of support. It might not be RAI but is most certainly RAW. I'm not saying it's how TWF should work, but that's how it's written to work. Personally I would allow you to make a full attack with thrown weapons using all the TWF chain, but the RAW does not support this.
Yes RAW does;
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
So long as you have Quickdraw it appears clear that you can keep drawing and throwing weapons like axes, daggers, darts etc.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Quick Draw (Combat)
It looks clear to me that with the correct feats (TWF & Quickdraw) you can easily TWF normally with thrown weapons.
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Didn't even think of that part Daryl thanks.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat).
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon
So the only mention of them together says they are treated as light for TWF purposes however there is no exception to the wielded in hand rule.
So you can punch if you want with your off hand but you cannot by RAW off hand attack with a kick or headbutt.
bbt you and I both know the hand thing is false. I'm simply choosing to play the "absurdities from RAW game".
I know I am necroing this thread, but I have valuable insight to add to this, specifically in regards to Monks.
Under normal circumstances, TWF can be used with unarmed strikes. Monks, however, are an exception do to the following statement in the writeup of the monk's unarmed strikes: There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.
So a monk benefits from twf only when using a monk weapon in the off-hand.
I'm currently playing a paladin with the enlightened Paladin Archetype and ran into this complication.
The no off hand means you don't reduce the damage when used to TWF. A monk that grabs the TWF feat has two main hand attacks.
What I want to know now is.. could someone hold a zwiehander and use Kicks for TWF? what would the penalties be for such a thing? and why don't more people do that?
you are responding to a post that is 2 years old, so you are unlikely to get a response from any of the original contributors.
It's my understanding that TWF (not to be confused with brawler's or monk's flurry) is strictly using your hands. You can throw a punch as your "offhand" attack but you couldn't kick. A monk or brawler could hold a zwiehander and flurry with kicks. No one does this though because the monk could alternatively use any 2 handed "monk" weapon and make all of their attacks via flurry with said 2 handed weapon which is far more effective.
You could have both your hands occupied and still kick someone but the kick now becomes your attack. Improved unarmed combat is useful if you're using a 2-handed reach weapon since it will allow you to still threaten the area around you even though your hands are occupied.
Welcome to the Land of Metaphorical Hands.
Essentially, design has stated (though it isn't terribly official) that you can only get "two hands' worth" of utility via two-weapon fighting. You could two-weapon fight with a one-handed weapon (wielded in one hand) and a boot spike, but a two-handed weapon and a boot spike is right out, because design sensibilities and math reasons like such as.