Disarming and kicking the weapon away, or disarm and TAKE the weapon

[cmastah]

Now here's the thing:

I know that there's a feat that lets you disarm an opponent and throw his weapon 10ft (2 squares) away, but what if someone attempts to KICK the weapon away (I guess treat the attempt as a standard action and unarmed attack against the weapon), is that possible? If so, what actions and DCs am I looking at?

Also, if a PC chose to disarm someone, he can take the weapon if he was unarmed? What if he had one arm free?

I'm also confused, what benefits are there to shield bash? I'm tempted to recommend to a player being a sword and board fighter, but I need to know what I can promise him a sword and board fighter would be capable of (he's a 4e'er and has never used disarm, trip or bullrush unless 4e allowed it, and as for myself, I've never taken a fighter before).

[Mabven the OP healer]

If he is unarmed when he disarms his opponent, he may pick up the weapon as a free action. I don't know that there are specific rules about kicking a weapon away, but I would rule it to be a move action.

A shield bash is simply an attack with one's shield. It resolves just like any weapon attack, and you can refer to the weapons table in the equipment section to get a shield's damage, threat range, etc... When you use your shield as a weapon, you do not benefit from the shield's shield bonus to AC for that round, unless you take the Improved Shield Bash feat.

A fighter who wants to fight sword-and-board style, and would like to use his shield as a weapon on a regular basis would benefit greatly from the Two Weapon Fighting feat tree - a light shield would be the preferred shield for a twf sword-and-board fighter, because it is considered a light weapon, whereas a heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, and thus would incur an additional attack penalty when used as an off-hand attack.

[illuminar]

In regards to the first question...

Only if the attack that he used to disarmed the opponent was an unarmed strike, or otherwise done without using a weapon, can he immediately "pick up" the weapon.

If his CMB roll was high enough to disarm the opponent and throw the weapon 10 feet you can discribe it in any way you wish. Including to say it feel straight down and was kicked. However, if the weapon fell straight down and then the character wants to kick it, then it enters the grey arm of DM choice. But there is no official way to address that action.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#disarm

Consider...

...using the bull rush rules giving the weapon a 9 CMD (base 10, -5 dex, +4 cover from the previous owner) or higher if the terrain warrants it.

...using sleight of hand or acrobatics verse the characters CMD. With overage equal to the distance it was moved away.

...using a simple attack roll

In regards to the sword and board. Others could give you better advice than I. It's not my favorite style so I'm not as well versed.

[Serisan]

The rules provide a clear means for moving the weapon after a disarm:

CRB wrote:

Greater Disarm (Combat)

You can knock weapons far from an enemy's grasp.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Disarm. Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction.

Normal: Disarmed weapons and gear land at the feet of the disarmed creature.

Otherwise, it is a standard action to Disarm, a standard action to pick up (for which you must enter the opponent's square), and a standard action to throw the weapon.

RE: #2

Quote:

If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

You can choose, if fighting with a 1 handed weapon and a free hand, to disarm using the free hand. However...

Quote:

Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.

So you're going to want Improved Unarmed Strike, which makes you armed when not using a weapon.

[Jiggy]

Serisan wrote:

Otherwise, it is a standard action to Disarm, a standard action to pick up (for which you must enter the opponent's square), and a standard action to throw the weapon.

First, it's a move action to pick up an item, not a standard action.

Second, there's no rule stating you need to be in the same square as the item you're picking up. All creatures of Small size or larger have 5ft reach. You have to be Tiny or smaller to need to move into the square to reach it.

However, you are right about the disarm and the throw being standard actions.

@the OP: Also remember that trying to disarm someone while being unarmed yourself (the condition for auto-grabbing the disarmed item) imposes a -4 penalty on the maneuver.

[cmastah]

Thanks for the info guys :)

[Sekret_One]

Just tossing this out there for the 'bull rushing the item' (which would probably be the way I'd handle it if you were kicking away an item) it's CMD would be modified by it's size which is likely to be small or tiny.

[Jiggy]

Sekret_One wrote:

Just tossing this out there for the 'bull rushing the item' (which would probably be the way I'd handle it if you were kicking away an item) it's CMD would be modified by it's size which is likely to be small or tiny.

It would also be helpless, and a maneuver against a helpless target auto-succeeds, IIRC.

[krav krav]

Why isnt there a feat if you have a free hand and you disarm an opponent u can automatically take his weapon?

[Johnico]

Because you can do that already. If you are using a free hand to disarm your opponent and succeed, you can pick up the weapon you just knocked out of his hand as a free action. It's under the rules for disarming, observe:

Da Rules (from the combat section of the PRD) wrote:

Disarm

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.

If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm. If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

Bold added by me for emphasis.

[kinevon]

By the way, on fallen weapons: It takes a move action to pick it up, but doing so provokes an AoO.

There is no standard rules mechanic on kicking a weapon away from wher eit fell, although there are a few things that can be used that can simulate that.

Improved Whip Mastery lets you use your whip to attempt to grab unattended objects and pull them over to you.

Greater Disarm throws the disarmed weapon 15' away from the disarmee.

And, to be honest, for my trip/disarm build, I am of two minds about the effects of Greater Disarm, even though my PC has it. It can be amusing, but, sometimes, letting the target think he has a chance to get his weapon back can be even more amusing....

[krav krav]

Hm, well as i understood that... it means without using a weapon, i.e. if you use a flail in one hand and have a second hand free and use a flail to disarm an opponent that still means you used a weapon so you cannot pick it up automatically?

Am i misunderstanding this or?