It seems many of the multiclass prestige classes suffer from this, and mystic theurge is no exception. Going from level 3 to level 8 your character ends up as a waste of space casting 2nd level spells, with lower BAB, lower hp, and much lower caster level.
From 8 to 16 you slowly start to catch up, but are always behind with one token useful ability that you only get at capstone, while forgoing bonus feats and class powers, and caster level. There exist some feats that can help repair the deficit but these feats become enormous opportunity costs compared with single class characters that invest their feats in actually making their characters more powerful.
Combine spells is nearly useless. Spell synthesis is great, but only weak as a capstone.
I'd like to suggest a couple of changes, most importantly to the entrance requirement:
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.
Base Attack Bonus +2
So that mystic theurge is entered a full two levels earlier.
2nd level Theurgic Research: 3/4ths of the mystic theurge level is used for calculating class powers like channel energy, oracle's curse, domain powers, school powers, familiar benefits. This grants no new powers, spells, or abilities.
At levels 4, 6, 8 Theurgic discovery. Gain traits from the list: Magical knack, focused mind, and theoretical magician. Magical knack is taken once for either class to make up for loss of caster levels to enter theurge.
At level 5 add lesser spell synthesis, like spell synthesis except level 3 spells or lower with no dc or spell pen bonus.
Combined Spells: Get rid of extra spell level cost, max combined spells for slot swapping is the same as the bonus spells for spellcasting slot. A sorcerer/cleric mystic theurge with a cha of 20 and a wis of 18 would be able to use 2 sorcerer slots to fuel 1st level cleric spells and 1 cleric slot to fuel 1st level sorcerer spells.
At 16th level you have a cleric that has 2 8th level spells, a wizard that has 8th level spells, and a theurge that has 7th level spells. They all cast at 16th level, the theurge can cast more spells, but they're weaker. Once per day the theurge can combine spells.
What's better about this option is oracles and sorcerers can make use of the theurge class, and the leveling is less painful. Levels 3-4 are the only really awful ones. Sorcerer's and Oracles can avoid MAD but also lose more of their base class bonuses, as new bloodline powers/ mysteries won't be available while also suffering the extra 1 level penalty from spell progression.
The way this is set up theruge could be entered either 2/2 from any arcane/divine, or take 3/1 from divine/arcane. While 3/1 grants access to divine spells faster, this is slightly balanced by arcane spells being stronger and more versatile, though I can see an argument to restrict entry to only 2/2 splits for balance.
What do you guys think?
What does BAB have to do with the mystic theurge? It seems weird to have that for an entry requirement.
I'd be more inclined to require 2nd level spells in one class and 1st level spells in the other.
Mostly to enforce a 2/2 entry requirement. 2nd level spells in only one class as a requirement work but is strictly more powerful because it allows a 1 level dip to qualify, meaning only a 1 level penalty to the class with the 2nd level spells.
I guess calling out 2/2 explicitly as an entry requirement works, but I don't remember seeing a PrC with entry requirements of class levels, but I do see BAB requirements.
Perhaps "Two levels of a class that grants arcane casting progress and two levels of a class that grants divine casting progression" would work but it would be unprecedented as far as I know for PrC entry requirements.
So uh...other than the rather crappy prospect of the capstone, why *wouldn't* someone take this?
I mean, hey, one level of cleric to get most of their domain abilities, your wizard school abilities progressing, and almost full casting in both? Damn, you'd be stupid not to take this.
AKA: way too powerful, tone it down.
Flagged to be moved to the correct forum.
The biggest problem with MT now is 3/3 to 4/4 entry requirements without any feats to make up for loss of 3 spellcasting levels.
You spend 6 levels casting 1st and 2nd level spells while pure casters are casting things like haste and black tentacles, but the standard MT has shield other and glitterdust without any more actions to use the extra spells.
3/1 on divine/arcane is too powerful I think, but not crazy overpowered. You lose 3/4th BAB, failure free armor and shield usage and higher level domain powers for a lot of low level wizard spells. They can be handy, but so can hitting things, higher level domain powers, and using medium armor/shields.
3/1 is too strong, 3/3 is way too weak. 2/2 Is just right, but I'm not sure how to word it in traditional PrC entry requirements language.
Dezakin,
I think your idea is a clever and long overdue.
This prestige class is not ideal currently. It needs improvement.
I think the problem alot of people run into prc is trying to make them do something they are not really intended for, i see this alot in the arcane archer treads.
What people seem to want is dual spell prpgresdion without giving up much.
What they get is a prc that pdobably produces an extremely good suppoort char with alot of options.
I am torn a bit on the MT I think it is slightly weak, but think giving them an extra casting level in both classes will be a bit too strong.
The class needs to be accesible from level 6 onward, so that a 3/2 wizard cleric or cleric/wizard can enter next level. I use a houserule to stack all effective casterlevels, so that 3/2 wizard cleric would cast their spells effectively as a 5th lvl caster (variant of magic rating system), so that a silly feat/trait tax isn't required and they can function better as Mr. Magic of the party. I have no clue what the PrC entry requirements would have to be to make the entry requirements so btw.
I'd like to adapt the Pathfinder Savant to be a workable base class that functions much like what people expect from the MT, optionally it could be an alternate class of the sorcerer just give the sorcerer esoteric magic for all the spells on the cleric/druid (and other full 1 to 9 casters) list and make the favored class ability for humans allowable for all races and you have a workable 'MT' with nearly full magical potential.
The biggest problem with MT now is 3/3 to 4/4 entry requirements without any feats to make up for loss of 3 spellcasting levels.
You spend 6 levels casting 1st and 2nd level spells while pure casters are casting things like haste and black tentacles, but the standard MT has shield other and glitterdust without any more actions to use the extra spells.
You call it a problem, I call it balance. It does not matter that you lose out on domain or school progression - you cast spells of both divine and arcane magic! You even end up casting level 9 spells in both and you can use spell slots of either side for your spells.
Think about it, in terms of power level, if your a pure wizard - do you want your 1/day level 8 school power, or rather an entire range of first and second level cleric spells? Of course the mystic theurge wins out.
Additionally the capstone is brilliant. It is not "weaker" - keep in mind that this capstone is reached at level 16; that is much earlier than regular core class capstones. In terms of Paizo APs, that is an ability you reach in time for the finale.
The MT wears two hats, but so does the plain vanilla cleric, and going MT means you can't be the secondary tank anymore. Role versatility has not been gained, just changed. And, of course, the MAD and lost caster level mean that enemies will make their saves against your spells more often and your spells will be less effective.The decision to go the Mystic Theurge route is for one and one reason only... breadth of spell casting. Not for depth, not fore sheer power not for tanking (you're a caster not a wannabe figher), just for the major number and breadth of spells that one can cast. The Mystic Theurge needs no boosts it's penalties are appropriate given what the route the caster takes. If the Mystic Theurge were to be boosted beyond it's current state it would make the single class casters a lot less of a reasonable path to follow.
Can't say I agree. Playing from 2-7 to enter the class is terrible. The spells are at best utility spells, your combat contribution is tiny. Breadth of spells is meaningless if you still only get low level spells, and you don't get more actions per round.
Level 1 1st level spells
Level 2 1st level spells
Level 3 2nd level spells
Level 4 More 1st level spells
Level 5 More 1st level spells
Level 6 More 2nd level spells
Level 7 More 2nd level spells...
Further it favors wizard/cleric vastly more than sorcerer or oracle, since they need 4/4 to enter, where you're 4 caster levels behind in a class thats sort of about casting.
You end up with a waste of space that has some utility out of combat, but can't really contribute effectively with 3/3 entrance. It's allright for a 5th player who doesn't mind never doing much more than a few buffs and knowledge checks I guess.
The notion that 2/2 makes single class casters less reasonable to follow is a bit silly. Single class casters get more channeling, domain powers, school powers, bonus feats, and most importantly the next spell level. Oracles and sorcerers get bloodline powers and mysteries; Pure divines don't have to worry about spell failure in armor, and you can take feats to specialize in what you're good at.
MT as is a very weak flavor class that tries to do everything poorly. Arcane trickster is much better even with the loss of caster levels because the rogue levels and trickster features compliment the spells and vice versa, and even then on its own trickster is weak. MT doesn't have that synergy.
2/2 Entrance on its own and MT is still fairly weak, because then you still need feat investment to make it have even normal caster levels to overcome SR, which is why I think giving MT a couple of knack tricks and a lesser spell synthesis in the middle of the class to define it rounds it out. The wizard is still going to outshine it, and so is the cleric, but not so much that MT is just a terrible idea to play.
You can Skip MT and progress as a single caster of a single type of magic OR you can take a little bit of a dip in power to be able to wreak havoc on both sides of the Arcane/Divine Spectrum.
You end up with a crap load more spells per day and can use the other type magic to power the spells you REALLY like.
This PC is already making a monster. Let's not make it worse.
You can Skip MT and progress as a single caster of a single type of magic OR you can take a little bit of a dip in power to be able to wreak havoc on both sides of the Arcane/Divine Spectrum.
You end up with a crap load more spells per day and can use the other type magic to power the spells you REALLY like.
This PC is already making a monster. Let's not make it worse.
MT is overpowered as is because they can cast a bunch of low level arcane/divine spells? You get a few more spells per day, they're all lower level, and your caster level and spell pen are compromised, all out of the door. While the pure caster casts plane shift or baleful polymorph, or magic jar along with a quickened spell, you're playing fun games with stinking cloud or prayer. Three levels of spellcasting progression is not by any stretch a "little dip in power."
Theurge is weak. Caster levels hit, and spell progression hit without any synergy makes it unattractive unless you like the idea of playing an adept. Not exactly sure how you think its a monster, but okay...
You have the CHOICE to focus on one caster class or dip into 2.
No reason to make a comparable power caster for both in one character.
The MT gets to blast out a stack of spells per day. They may not be 9th level but, used judiciously, low level spells can be devastating.
Add a couple of feats in there for Spell Penetration/Etc and the Mystic Theurge does what can be expected.
What I'm seeing is that the last few posters aren't complaining about the MT.. they are proponents of base Mage or Cleric.
Since that is the case, you can CHOOSE not to go MT.
So this build is not best for a primary caster in either divine or arcane?
I am torn a bit on the MT I think it is slightly weak, but think giving them an extra casting level in both classes will be a bit too strong.
The class needs to be accesible from level 6 onward, so that a 3/2 wizard cleric or cleric/wizard can enter next level. I use a houserule to stack all effective casterlevels, so that 3/2 wizard cleric would cast their spells effectively as a 5th lvl caster (variant of magic rating system), so that a silly feat/trait tax isn't required and they can function better as Mr. Magic of the party. I have no clue what the PrC entry requirements would have to be to make the entry requirements so btw.
3/2 Feels just tiny bit weak to me, but it would probably still work if you gave MT some more class features. Then you end up focusing on one class with backup spells from the other. You're one spell level below in one class and 1.5 spell levels below in the other...
Pure class wizard can drop black tentacles, you're not terrible because you can still drop a slow, but your cleric spells give you the ability to cast a couple of heals and maybe bulls strength.
I'd like to adapt the Pathfinder Savant to be a workable base class that functions much like what people expect from the MT, optionally it could be an alternate class of the sorcerer just give the sorcerer esoteric magic for all the spells on the cleric/druid (and other full 1 to 9 casters) list and make the favored class ability for humans allowable for all races and you have a workable 'MT' with nearly full magical potential.
Witch sort of does that. I was trying to find a way to do the PrC that doesn't suck where you pay a penalty in spellcasting for versatility. 3 levels just seems like too much of a penalty to be useful though.
If anybody arguing that the theurge is powerful wants to look at Atarlosts's list of spells of each level up there and add up their spell point costs, you might see there's a problem.
The theurge's spells per day add up to fewer total spell points than the pure casters' do. It's worse than it looks, too: spell point variants are regarded as higher power than slots because you can spend more of your daily resources on higher level effects. The theurge's fewer resources are weighted very heavily towards low level effects. Not only does the theurge get less fuel, he's also forced to burn it inefficiently.
It's not "more spells". It's "Less magic".
When you consider that his caster level, casting attribute average and base save DCs are lower too, you end up with a class that has less, wastes much of what it does have, can't use what little's left as effectively and screws up more often.
And for what? He gets two spell lists, both of which are already so diverse that many argue that prepared casters with just one are capable of anything anyway.
And even that's only once you've made it into the class.
The entire concept behind the design is a patch to fix the flawed scaling of multiclass casters, but it's too little too late.
The problem isn't the prestige class itself, it is the problem it tries to fix. Multiclassing spell casters. Without re-writing the magic system you cant fix this.
What you can do is play this 3rd party class. It is everything the MT ought to be, and it does so in a reasonably balanced and effective way. It is also available on the d20pfsrd(as the magister) website if you want to check out the details. But basically, you choose 2 spellcasting class spell lists, and take spells known from one normally and they other at one higher spell level then normal. You can from level 1 play the kind of character you want, and do it without jumping through the hoops that the system forces multiclass casters.
The problem isn't the prestige class itself, it is the problem it tries to fix. Multiclassing spell casters. Without re-writing the magic system you cant fix this.
What you can do is play this 3rd party class. It is everything the MT ought to be, and it does so in a reasonably balanced and effective way. It is also available on the d20pfsrd(as the magister) website if you want to check out the details. But basically, you choose 2 spellcasting class spell lists, and take spells known from one normally and they other at one higher spell level then normal. You can from level 1 play the kind of character you want, and do it without jumping through the hoops that the system forces multiclass casters.
I think I read it once as a free download, I like the general idea though I often find Super Genius classes feel a bit too plain, in essence combining sorcerer or oracle casting with versatility of two spell lists is probably the best way to do this though. I might transplant some features from the pathfinder savant to the class to flesh it out a bit more.