Hey,
So I hit a slight problem.
I have a Cleric who goes by his own ideals and doesn't wish to believe in/worship a Deity, because of his own agenda and morality, but a party member who's a Sorcerer of Erastil has taken it upon himself to min/max his character's Diplomacy and preach to us all whenever an opportunity arises.
Now, I have a very Charismatic character with a +10 in Diplomacy, but even when I roll high, I cannot surpass his character as she has around a +16 on Diplomacy.
How can I go about battling this because I've made it clear my character strongly disagree's with worshipping a God, but every time I fail to surpass his opposed roll, even by a little (between 2 and 5), my GM says "You're turning more and more towards Erastil", even though my guy really isn't because he thinks the Sorcerer is an idiot for doing so. Though, the GM has for whatever reason said the new character (another Cleric, this time of Sarenrae) of the party is unaffected by this.
Now, I don't like inter-party conflict at all, but if I follow my characters design without changing it to better the party for meta reasons, my character is likely to start charming the Sorcerer because of the preaching and I doubt that this would be a good thing. He uses mind and compulsion enchantment spells over anything and focuses in Murderous Command and Command, so it would just take my guy a second to convince the Fighter of the party to kill the Sorcerer over this (my character is purposefully weak, with his strength's being his healing and mind effecting abilities), but in doing so, this would forcibly make another player control his character possibly against his will to kill another.
My guy is Neutral Good, so wouldn't be against the idea, but primarily his aims are to sway the tide of battle by getting his (and the parties) enemies to fight one another long enough for the Fighters of the group to finish them off. Basically my guy is a tactician who aids the whole group, building relations up between himself and the other members to eventually get them working for him, so he can accomplish his own goals.
Anyway, after my ramblings, I guess the main purpose of this thread is just to find a more viable way of combating the preaching of another players character.
Thanks a lot. :)
+1 what Coridan said, though you can rp to take into account his high diplomacy.
Note that if it is a by the book campaign Golarion has no clerics without deity.
Well, I agree with you on this, but the game mechanics seem to allow you to do this just fine, so my GM doesn't seem to have a problem with it.
I won't get Geas from my Charm domain until I can cast 6th level spells and even then it takes 10 minutes to cast. :/
As for Dominate Person, as far as I know that's a Bard only spell (same for lesser geas which only takes a round to cast, but I wasn't allowed it because it's not on the Cleric list, sadly), with Dominate Monster (which includes people) as the 9th level spell from my Charm domain - The very last one I'll get, so it's pretty problematic because I'm currently level 3, with access only to level 1 and 2 spells.
Edit: Yea, it is by the book and the book states you can have a Cleric with his own ideals and that worked best for my concept as my guy has the Charm and Nobility Domains. He unwillingly accepts that Gods give him his power (I had to because my GM said if you don't, you'll have no spells or powers of any kind), but he hates anyone who sucks up and uses everything to his advantage.
Well, I agree with you on this, but the game mechanics seem to allow you to do this just fine, so my GM doesn't seem to have a problem with it.
I won't get Geas from my Charm domain until I can cast 6th level spells and even then it takes 10 minutes to cast. :/
As for Dominate Person, as far as I know that's a Bard only spell (same for lesser geas which only takes a round to cast, but I wasn't allowed it because it's not on the Cleric list, sadly), with Dominate Monster (which includes people) as the 9th level spell from my Charm domain - The very last one I'll get, so it's pretty problematic because I'm currently level 3, with access only to level 1 and 2 spells.
Edit: Yea, it is by the book and the book states you can have a Cleric with his own ideals and that worked best for my concept as my guy has the Charm and Nobility Domains. He unwillingly accepts that Gods give him his power (I had to because my GM said if you don't, you'll have no spells or powers of any kind), but he hates anyone who sucks up and uses everything to his advantage.
I know the Core Rule Book says you can have a cleric on ideals, the Golarion specific campaign setting does not have this option. I am not against houseruling anything, just thought I'd mention it. The core rule book states rules for generic campaigns, a few things work differently in Golarion.
Perhaps you can construct a special phylactery of faithfulness (faithlessness) that shields you from 'godly propaganda', sounds like a cool custom item to me. Add some cool powers on it and offer to make the other party members a similar circlet ^^ magic items can be oh so tempting to the average player.
Now we just need a name that sounds less like a cursed item...
Hmm, well we always play with Paizo products and go by whatever campaign book we're playing, so Kingmaker I guess, wouldn't count as the Golarion setting. Even though that sounds contradictory because everything in Pathfinder is set in Golarion.
I'll point out he can't influence my character then. Knowing him he'll still ignore me, but I don't think it's right to get annoyed at people for tk'ing, when you're allowing a character to mess with another playable character's beliefs.
Thanks for the information, Coridan! :)
Edit: Remco, as cool as that might be, my guy has no crafting abilities really. He's just started to focus in Spellcraft for the Spell Perfection feat later on, but Craft Magic Arms and Armour and all of those other crafting feats are things I'm not really interested in for this character.
It'd make things easier for the party, but my concept was to go with:
Trait: Magical Lineage - Murderous Command
Feats:
Level 1: Toughness, Selective Channeling
Level 3: Spell Focus (Compulsion)
Level 5: Heighten Spell
Level 7: Extend Spell
Level 9: Greater Spell Focus (Compulsion)
Level 11: Channeled Revival (or Extra Channel)
Level 13: Bouncing Spell
Level 15: Versatile Channeler
Level 17: Spell Perfection
So yea, I don't have the option to add anything else as Clerics get half of the Feats Fighter's do, unfortunately.
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Your GM seems to think that he can tell you what role-playing decisions have to be made for your character. Aside from the fact that inter-party battling is stupid (and you really shouldn't participate), there's nothing in the rules that says that a Diplomacy check can force a PC to accept another religion. Or any religion for that matter.
I would just advice you to talk to the GM and then the player and explain to them that you are uncomfortable with this and that you wish them to stop. If either one of them pulls the "well I'm just in character" crap, call them on it and tell them that you're not having fun. Remind them of the Wheaton's first law: "don't be a dick."
Hmm, well we always play with Paizo products and go by whatever campaign book we're playing, so Kingmaker I guess, wouldn't count as the Golarion setting. Even though that sounds contradictory because everything in Pathfinder is set in Golarion.
I'll point out he can't influence my character then. Knowing him he'll still ignore me, but I don't think it's right to get annoyed at people for tk'ing, when you're allowing a character to mess with another playable character's beliefs.
Thanks for the information, Coridan! :)
Edit: Remco, as cool as that might be, my guy has no crafting abilities really. He's just started to focus in Spellcraft for the Spell Perfection feat later on, but Craft Magic Arms and Armour and all of those other crafting feats are things I'm not really interested in for this character.
It'd make things easier for the party, but my concept was to go with:
Trait: Magical Lineage - Murderous Command
Feats:
Level 1: Toughness, Selective Channeling
Level 3: Spell Focus (Compulsion)
Level 5: Heighten Spell
Level 7: Extend Spell
Level 9: Greater Spell Focus (Compulsion)
Level 11: Channeled Revival (or Extra Channel)
Level 13: Bouncing Spell
Level 15: Versatile Channeler
Level 17: Spell PerfectionSo yea, I don't have the option to add anything else as Clerics get half of the Feats Fighter's do, unfortunately.
Too bad, I really started to like the item hehe.. Well, it is possible to have it crafted for you still I suppose, even though you won't convert anyone else.
I'd just discuss it with your GM and you might give a little, since the other character has invested in diplomacy have him agree to some of the principles as you would agree with a person, though have no intent of worshipping the deity just for having the power to lord it over everyone. Just have it clear with your GM that he does not turn you to worship, since that is an important aspect of your character's personality.
Tell your dm to read the diplomacy skill.
" Once a creature's attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
Ignoring the fact that he his house ruling diplomacy to work on pcs. It would still auto fail because the sorcerer in question is not making a request other than change your belief system and that does go against your values and/or nature.
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This will be your LE advice for the thread. Follow at your own peril.
You are noble. What right has this commoner to instruct you? This hedge wizard believes he knows what's best for you? He has no respect for your class, your position, embarrassing you before your peers. If his "god" and his blood make him so mighty, let us just see how well he does without your help. And when he, beaten and bloody without the spells you cast to enhance him and your team, needs aid and healing, that is when you should instruct him of his error. Only when he vows to show you the proper respect, and only then, should you bail him out of the danger his own ego caused.
You are a noble. He is a peon. The only mistake you've made is to forget these facts.
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Tell your dm to read the diplomacy skill.
" Once a creature's attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
Ignoring the fact that he his house ruling diplomacy to work on pcs. It would still auto fail because the sorcerer in question is not making a request other than change your belief system and that does go against your values and/or nature.
This. Your GM is running Diplo wrong.
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An interesting tidbit in addition to others mentioning the limits on Diplomacy: Most things that force a PC to think/behave/react in a certain way are spectacular.
They are things like supernatural creatures inducing fear. Charm spells directly compromising the target's mind. So on and so forth, the pattern isn't absolute but it is the norm.
Generally speaking, if your character currently has full free will then his reactions are up to you.
Thanks guys!
I'll have a chat with him and see what happens, but he likes to stick by the rules (usually), only using Core, APG, UM and UC, so I'll show him where it specifically states "Non-playable character" and have a chat with him to see what he thinks. Hopefully it won't be a case of "my game and I'm fine with it, so he can do that to you and everyone else".
@RogueRouge - I especially like your take on it, although my guy would be a little different to that, for obvious alignment reasons. :p
It's more a case of he's fine with working in a group, always takes note of what his allies are best at doing, but doesn't appreciate the Sorcerer preaching to him when he's clearly not interested. It's making him uncomfortable and although he hasn't expressed his opinion on the matter yet, he see's people who agitate him as beings below him. He has to be pushed a lot to feel like this and generally has mostly good intentions, but feels he has to say something soon, otherwise he's going to have problems with at least one member of the party.
The member in question has the lowest AC and HP of the group (I think it was between 8 and 10 at level 3, due to having no Con bonus), always staying at the back to summon creatures, but strongly believes in the faith of Erastil.
I think the first thing I need to do next session is talk in character about it and ask to be excluded, because my guy's all ok for others to believe in something like that, but he personally couldn't care less and it bothers him that people want to change the way he is, for their own cause. It also makes him trust the woman less.
Tell your dm to read the diplomacy skill.
" Once a creature's attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
Ignoring the fact that he his house ruling diplomacy to work on pcs. It would still auto fail because the sorcerer in question is not making a request other than change your belief system and that does go against your values and/or nature.
+1
Becoming helpful and friendly doesn't mean to adopt someone's opinions and beliefs.
And that works even less for PCs.
The player deicdes what his character thinks and does (unless controlled by magic), so only if you as a player decide that your character wants to convert because of some good reasons given by another PC or an NPC, you do it.
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Ugh... if your dm wants intra-party fighting... at the next time he needs healing... (he accepts the spell you cast... did he max out sense motive?)
- Bestow curse (-6 charisma)Or
Silence spell around him while he's in physical combat.I find it highly irritating when players make characters like this. I once had a game where one player was constantly trying to irritate the other one, claiming to be "in character". In reality, he just wanted to be a jerk.
Couldn't agree more. It's a pathetic pissing contest disguised as roleplaying.
On that note OP, try your hardest not to answer in turn while in character. It's only going to escalate things. Once you start flinging spells (even if they're not dmg spells) that player is going to feel vindicated to do it more and more.
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Well, all I say when the GM and other player says "you're now an/closer to being a Erastil follower" is, "No I'm not, because my character has his own goals and motives and wants nothing to do with Religion."
I actually wanted my guy to be an Atheist but the GM told me if he is, he'll have no access to his powers as you have to believe in the Gods and know the Gods give you your power, even if you don't want to, because otherwise you'll have no power. So, he reluctantly acknowledges their existence but wants no part in following a Religion as he sees things differently.
If the Gods wanted something done, he feels they have the power to do it themselves and that all of the worshippers are mindless people who work for a God because they have no other place in the world.
He knows his own goals and motives and doesn't need or want any help from a higher being. Preaching especially gets on his nerves, but so far he's kept a cool head about things.
About two sessions back, a shrine of Erastil cleared of all impurity after defeating a certain someone, then the Sorcerer recognised it as Erastil purging the area and turning the water into drinkable water once more, that healed you. The GM's response was "you believe in Erastil and are closer to following him, now that you've seen the power of the Gods abilities".
My guy would be more along the lines of "Wow, a small miracle was made by bringing the surrounding death back to life, whilst making healing water. It's nicer this way, but is that all a God can do? If we were in the heat of battle, certain death in front of us, then all of a sudden the opposing forces just dropped dead, then that would be handy and more like my thoughts on what a powerful God can do, but this is reality. Why would a God bother getting involved with anything that doesn't bother or threaten its very existence? I don't personally think they'd care and all of the worshippers are just pawns anyway."
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Well, all I say when the GM and other player says "you're now an/closer to being a Erastil follower" is, "No I'm not, because my character has his own goals and motives and wants nothing to do with Religion."
I actually wanted my guy to be an Atheist but the GM told me if he is, he'll have no access to his powers as you have to believe in the Gods and know the Gods give you your power, even if you don't want to, because otherwise you'll have no power. So, he reluctantly acknowledges their existence but wants no part in following a Religion as he sees things differently.
If the Gods wanted something done, he feels they have the power to do it themselves and that all of the worshippers are mindless people who work for a God because they have no other place in the world.
He knows his own goals and motives and doesn't need or want any help from a higher being. Preaching especially gets on his nerves, but so far he's kept a cool head about things.
About two sessions back, a shrine of Erastil cleared of all impurity after defeating a certain someone, then the Sorcerer recognised it as Erastil purging the area and turning the water into drinkable water once more, that healed you. The GM's response was "you believe in Erastil and are closer to following him, now that you've seen the power of the Gods abilities".
My guy would be more along the lines of "Wow, a small miracle was made by bringing the surrounding death back to life, whilst making healing water. It's nicer this way, but is that all a God can do? If we were in the heat of battle, certain death in front of us, then all of a sudden the opposing forces just dropped dead, then that would be handy and more like my thoughts on what a powerful God can do, but this is reality. Why would a God bother getting involved with anything that doesn't bother or threaten its very existence? I don't personally think they'd care and all of the worshippers are just pawns anyway."
That's how you should do it. Nice!
Haha, well I feel that's a relatively accurate Neutral Good response, considering his Noble and well educated upbringing. He'd have learned things from very opinionated people, but would have learned to interpret things in his own way. :)
Anyway, in the last campaign we did (a Homebrew), the same player had a Cleric who my character accidentally killed by pouring an out of date healing potion down his throat, to try to heal him in an attempt to get him combat ready again.
That failed and without a healer, one of our other party members died too, so two out of the four playing made new characters. The guy who was the Cleric decided to make a Cavalier on an Ankylosaurus at level 2 or 3 (I can't recall which, but I've only just learned you can only get those at level 4) who hates Lizardfolk, so immediately tried to kill the other Players character who was left with me and no matter how many diplomacy checks I made, his character wouldn't listen to reason or let mine and the Lizard folk's character leave and figured I was being manipulated by the Lizard and attacked my guy once for standing in the way, protecting the Lizard, when my guy was a squishy (Magus) compared to the Lizard Fighter.
Anyway, the two Players made their characters attack the Lizard regardless, until the Lizard knocked the Monk out and the Cavalier was stalled by my guy talking to him. Due to this however, he weakened us all (me by very little, thankfully) and got us all killed in the next encounter because of this. My guy died last, but still, the point is he actively made a character who would hate a character in the party at the GM's approval. So, it's not the first time this has happened.
I don't know how you convinced the GM to let you make an agnostic cleric but to each his own. (An agnostic Oracle, on the other hand, makes a lot more sense, as the powers are granted to an oracle possibly without his or her consent.) Sounds like a GM who encourages players to fight among themselves.
Well, he believes in Gods because the GM said he has to, so that's fair enough as far as I'm concerned, but I was made to be a Cleric for this campaign, so I made one I'd like. :)
He isn't that type of GM, but if things like that happen, he leaves it to us and doesn't really care either way. He just wants to tell the story etc and leaves practically everything up to us. Still, there was a really annoying person who played with us in Legacy of Fire, always trying to tell us what to do, making slavery jokes of my halfling, shooting my halfling because he was under a spell, kicking my halfling through a door and having a go out of character for actions in character, also shooting every person in the face whether they were essential to the story, apologetic or not....every character was tempted to kill his, but in the end my guy gave his life for the whole group while the overpowered, broken Zen Archer that he was (he was cheating the GM found out too, adding his attack bonus to his flurry of blows), just ran away after complaining about us never working in a team or doing things his way.
Was tempting to kill his character off and if one of us had attacked him, we all would have joined in it seemed, but no, my little Halfling (Isaac) Two Weapon Warrior gave his life for the party, but sadly it was in vain as all but the Monk died. :(
So basically, I don't think our group lets it get too extreme, but there's always some sort of conflict in the party, whether it's minor or not.
I'm kind of used to it now, but it means whenever I build a character, I usually have to plan how effective it would be against the party if they turned on one another. Bit silly really, seeing as this is a game where you're meant to work together in a group.
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Well, he believes in Gods because the GM said he has to, so that's fair enough as far as I'm concerned, but I was made to be a Cleric for this campaign, so I made one I'd like. :)
He isn't that type of GM, but if things like that happen, he leaves it to us and doesn't really care either way. He just wants to tell the story etc and leaves practically everything up to us. Still, there was a really annoying person who played with us in Legacy of Fire, always trying to tell us what to do, making slavery jokes of my halfling, shooting my halfling because he was under a spell, kicking my halfling through a door and having a go out of character for actions in character, also shooting every person in the face whether they were essential to the story, apologetic or not....every character was tempted to kill his, but in the end my guy gave his life for the whole group while the overpowered, broken Zen Archer that he was (he was cheating the GM found out too, adding his attack bonus to his flurry of blows), just ran away after complaining about us never working in a team or doing things his way.
Was tempting to kill his character off and if one of us had attacked him, we all would have joined in it seemed, but no, my little Halfling (Isaac) Two Weapon Warrior gave his life for the party, but sadly it was in vain as all but the Monk died. :(
So basically, I don't think our group lets it get too extreme, but there's always some sort of conflict in the party, whether it's minor or not.
I'm kind of used to it now, but it means whenever I build a character, I usually have to plan how effective it would be against the party if they turned on one another. Bit silly really, seeing as this is a game where you're meant to work together in a group.
Geez, wow... that sounds like a really dysfunctional group. I would have a real hard time playing with the players you've described and I'm not quite sure why you think this behavior is acceptable to the point of tolerating it.
If your DM still requires you to start following this god, do the one thing that can stop the other character. WALK AWAY, in character. This will make it so he can roll as high of a diplo as he wants, but it will not be heard. And if he follows you, state that you need quite contemplation, and simply cast Obscuring Mist or darkness and walk away, and if that doesnt get the point across, cast silence on yourself. If anyone "roleplays" that their character follows you after this kind of display, then it is time to give an ultimatum stating that he stops preaching, or he should leave the party.
Now this might not work, but it would take a player with major social ineptness to not catch on to the fact that you are done having that kind of behavior in game.
Well, because we're friendly in real life and it is just a game so it shouldn't effect how we act towards one another, so that's why I keep a cool head when controlling my characters, but I really didn't like the new guy who played with us that one time.
We're all between 20 and 25 and the guy who had the Monk was in his late 40's, but the GM felt it would be a good idea to bring him in, even though he'd played with him in another group, prior to that.
Two of us want to play properly all of the time and the third one who's new to it (known him for years though. He's one of the other players little brother) likes to play properly, but doesn't really say much or roleplay. He just attacks etc. It's just for some reason, there's usually at least one person being silly with their character.
I must admit I've accidentally gotten the whole party killed before, but by accident. I had a Barbarian once and for whatever reason we decided to climb into a hole that ended up being filled with Goblins. Once I got out (last in, first out), I came across a rust monster, so in character, figured the other characters would be ok and ended up stripping my armour and weapons off, blocking up the hole and standing in the way, so my armour and weapon wouldn't be eaten.
So, I ended up trying to punch the monster to death and unfortunately got everyone in the hole killed because I blocked them in. Then, when they all died, the Goblins all came out, I didn't think it would be a good idea to go through a huge door (not knowing civilization was outside) and tried to outclimb the goblins, by climbing up a statue and then falling to my death. Game over.
I dunno though, it's just the way we seem to play and I'd sooner stop playing than search for another group because they're local and I always have things to do, so it's easier for me to keep my day free once a week to join in.
It doesn't bother me too much, but then I am a pretty placid guy in general, so yea. It's a game at the end of the day and I think if you get upset about it, it's silly because it's trivial and really won't effect your life in any way. I'd be more worried about working my way up in the world, leading a successful career and keeping up to date with my monthly bills. :p
Your character doesn't have to listen to him either.
