Our group has five players instead of four, has always used a 25 point buy for attributes, has very well designed characters (if I do say so myself) and tend to play very smartly whenever not limited by RP obligations - which is to say if their character would make a mistake, they will make it, even if the player otherwise wouldn't.
So above average players with above average stats and a 5 man party instead of 4 - how much adjustment will we have to make? Our homebrew campaigns have always been very challenging, but we've really gotten interested in the AP's, enough so that I've just signed up for a subscription and have already pre-ordered the RotRL hardcover... I just really want to know that it'll be worth our time and every AP won't need to be practically re-written.
For the most part you may want to slap the advanced simple template on creatures, or simply give them max HD per die to balance things out. Five players instead of 4 isn't that big of a deal, but add on the higher point buy and a well organized group, and you need to adjust a little.
There are some challenges in the APs you're probably still going to want to run as written as there's usually at least one highly challenging fight/scene per book IMO.
One thing to keep in mind is that running an AP does still take about as much background work as running a homebrew. You don't have to come up with the storyline or encounters, but fleshing out the locations (towns/farms/what have you) is still going to require some homework. The AP will provide you with the information for the buildings that the scene is set in, but usually just a background stat block for the overall city. Though the write ups of Sandpoint and Magnimar in the original RotRL gives a lot of great information, bringing it to life still requires a lot of background thought and prep (at least for me).
The storylines and NPCs you get from the APs are completely worth it IMO though. I've read all of the APs, and have enjoyed them immensely.
For the most part you may want to slap the advanced simple template on creatures, or simply give them max HD per die to balance things out. Five players instead of 4 isn't that big of a deal, but add on the higher point buy and a well organized group, and you need to adjust a little.
There are some challenges in the APs you're probably still going to want to run as written as there's usually at least one highly challenging fight/scene per book IMO.
I'm thinking in most encounters we'll just add 1-3 'minion' type foes depending on setting and then max everyone's hit points... does that sound about right?
I'm thinking in most encounters we'll just add 1-3 'minion' type foes depending on setting and then max everyone's hit points... does that sound about right?For the most part you may want to slap the advanced simple template on creatures, or simply give them max HD per die to balance things out. Five players instead of 4 isn't that big of a deal, but add on the higher point buy and a well organized group, and you need to adjust a little.
There are some challenges in the APs you're probably still going to want to run as written as there's usually at least one highly challenging fight/scene per book IMO.
Where there's minions to be had, 1-3 more can be a good compromise for balancing them out, definitely. There's going to be a number of fights where it's only 1 or 2 bigger critters to start, and those I'd stick with the simple advanced template (+2 to everything) for those fights rather than adding in minion type that wasn't part of the fight to start with. Both of these can be done on the fly for the most part.
If you take the time to rebuild entire encounters to grab appropriate minions to go with the masters, that can work too, but it just takes more time from what I can tell.
Again, this is just my personal preference on how to run a scenario. Everyone has their own preferences and finds differing ways easier to handle, so what works best for you and your group is best way to go ;)
APs are designed for 4 characters, 15 point buy, with average players and an average DM.
Your 1st level characters are really equivalent to 5th level characters. +1 for the 5th person, +2 for 25 point buy, +1 for above average players.
At character levels 1-5 there is one of two issues. If the CR of the encounter is not upped, they should walk all over everything, *or*, if the CR is upped, one or two bad rolls on their part could end in a TPK. Sniggevert has the right of it, add the simple advanced template and up hit points and the CR should be about right.
At mid character levels 6-10 adding 2 class levels to a single creature encounters and upping hit points should be ok. For multiple creature encounters, add mooks as well as adding 2 class levels to the "boss".
At high character levels 10+ adding 3-4 class levels to single creature encounters and upping hit points should be ok. For multiple creature encounters, add lots of mooks as well as adding 3-4 class levels to the "boss".
Most APs end around 15th level so you really don't have to be concerned with levels 16+, although there is usually an article on continuing the campaign, but then you are back to "homebrew" adventures.
You know your guys best, so take this all with a grain of salt.
-- david
Papa.DRB
I'm in much of the same boat for my next campaign. Twenty point buy and six PC's.
I'm not sure where to go with it yet. Simply adding advanced templates helps with keeping the combats manageable and relatively short. However, the action economy then works decidedly for the players.
Adding more mooks has the disadvantage of simply prolonging ( sometimes ) trivial encounters and that mooks mostly suck and will not add much to the combat at all... they'll be just more fodder to the semi-optimized PC's.
I guess a middle way can be found, where no more than one or two additional opponents will be added and they get the advanced template applied once. But I'll have to wing it a lot, of that I am sure.
I'm in much of the same boat for my next campaign. Twenty point buy and six PC's.
I'm not sure where to go with it yet. Simply adding advanced templates helps with keeping the combats manageable and relatively short. However, the action economy then works decidedly for the players.
Adding more mooks has the disadvantage of simply prolonging ( sometimes ) trivial encounters and that mooks mostly suck and will not add much to the combat at all... they'll be just more fodder to the semi-optimized PC's.
I guess a middle way can be found, where no more than one or two additional opponents will be added and they get the advanced template applied once. But I'll have to wing it a lot, of that I am sure.
Let's keep in mind that most encounters are really just intended to drain the PC's of resources in preparation for the Boss-type fights. Sometimes weaker foes simply mean that you get to go through more encounters between rests.
We'll probably max out hit points, add 2 mooks/encounter and then add 2 levels to any major/named foes they face. That will be enough I'm sure.
I'm running "Rise of the Runelords" with a 6-character party, and 20-point buy. In hindsight, I wish I'd done a 15-point buy, and I would strongly recommend that. My PCs have been just steamrollering over the bad guys from the start. It's been quite a lot of work-- a lot more that I'd expected -- to convert every encounter to match their might.
I would advise in the strongest manner to go with a 15-point buy rather than 25-point, to save yourself a whole lot of work.
I'm running "Rise of the Runelords" with a 6-character party, and 20-point buy. In hindsight, I wish I'd done a 15-point buy, and I would strongly recommend that. My PCs have been just steamrollering over the bad guys from the start. It's been quite a lot of work-- a lot more that I'd expected -- to convert every encounter to match their might.
I would advise in the strongest manner to go with a 15-point buy rather than 25-point, to save yourself a whole lot of work.
I just find it hard to believe that 10 points of character attributes - which is what? The difference between a 14 STR and CON and a 16 STR and CON, a +1 bonus in each case? - I find it hard to believe that THAT is what would make such a profound difference.
Perhaps simply scaling back the treasure, especially the random stuff? We tend to run pretty low-magic campaigns as it is...
I just find it hard to believe that 10 points of character attributes - which is what? The difference between a 14 STR and CON and a 16 STR and CON, a +1 bonus in each case? - I find it hard to believe that THAT is what would make such a profound difference.
Perhaps simply scaling back the treasure, especially the random stuff? We tend to run pretty low-magic campaigns as it is...
Believe me for every 5 points in the point buy you increase over the standard 15 adds quite a punch especially with more than 4 players,
as the equation of party power increases a lot.
standard 15 point party of four power = 60,
25 point party of five = 125.
125/60 =~= 2,
2^2 = 4 times the power over a standard group.
OTOH my Carrion Crown group is built with simple 15 points and they have been steamrolling everything, too.
Creative Director
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The point buy you give players is probably the LEAST disruptive to game balance of the following three:
Player experience
Number of players
Ability score point buy
If your players are relatively new to the game, you probably won't need to do ANY adjustment to an Adventure Path if you have 5 players and a 25 point buy.
If your players are experienced gamers, though... you'll probably want to do something along the following lines:
• Add more "mooks" to fights so that the monsters aren't as outnumbered.
• Use the Advanced simple template a LOT, especially on significant monsters.
• Try to push the players into making longer adventure days so that they'll need to spread their resources thinner—more wandering monsters and danger at camptime, essentially.
• Maximize the hp of some monsters, especially "boss" monsters. Giving them max hp doesn't really increase their power level that much but DOES keep them on screen a little longer.
And stay mobile. Watch how the PCs are doing, and adjust as you go.
Just check the various ap threads on the messageboards since there are varios conversions done by others that can help.
We ran through Rise of the Runelords with 20pts, four-five strong players, and well built PCs.
And we rolled it. I wish it had been harder, or made harder.
Whenever someone in our group runs a published adventure, every player in the party just uses the following stats: 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16
Technically that is a 28 point buy but we have found it to be actually pretty balanced because you dont have characters with two 18's and three 7's.
When its a homebrew campaign, everyone just rolls.
Also check out Turin the Mad's campaign journals (under the Campaign Journal sub heading) for tricked out, crazy, uber-NPCs & monsters.
Thankyas for the plug my good Sir Hamster! :)