Thanatopic vampiric touch vs. undead?

[Ravingdork]

Can you use a thanatopic vampiric touch spell against an undead creature?

[frostdracul]

I would say yes based on the wording they use

Benefit: A thanatopic spell pierces defenses and immunities that protect against death effects, negative levels, and energy drain, affecting the target as if the protective barrier did not exist.

For example, you could cast a thanatopic vampiric touch or enervation spell on a target under the effects of death ward, and the target would suffer the normal effect of the spell. Saving throws and SR (if any) still apply. Undead are susceptible to spells augmented by this feat, as it retunes the negative energy to be harmful to them. A thanatopic spell that would kill a living creature (such as by giving it negative levels equal to its Hit Dice) destroys an undead (though undead such as ghosts, liches, and vampires may reform as normal). Undead affected by thanatopic spells that give negative levels automatically make their saving throws to remove negative levels after 24 hours.

It says that the feat retunes negative energy to be harmful. So it might be RAI but RAW you could use this feat for any spell that deals negative energy damage, even possibly inflict spells, to harm undead

[Nicos]

Ravingdork wrote:

Can you use a thanatopic vampiric touch spell against an undead creature?

Of course, is self evident. Now, that does not means it will help you to win the battle :).

[blackbloodtroll]

Knowing, is half the battle.

[Ravingdork]

I don't believe it is self evident at all. The metamgic feat specifically calls out vampiric touch, but only in the context of using it against living creatures protected by death ward.

The spell makes it clear that it only works on living creatures, whereas the metamagic feat only seems to say that it changes positive energy to negative and vice versa so that a given spell can work on undead. Vampiric touch does not utilize either positive or negative energy and thus doesn't seem to be applicable for this feat (at least not against undead).

I just wanted to make sure that my using it in this manner was within the RAW and not making an incorrect leap of logic.

[Nicos]

Ravingdork wrote:

I don't believe it is self evident at all

I mean, certainly you CAN USE the spell what will be the effect I do not know. Sorry RD, it was a troll post :P.

[frostdracul]

Well again based on the single line of the feat retuning the energy to be harmful i'd still say you could, i had a friend running a black blooded oracle for the carrion crown who modified the life mystery to be an "unlife" mystery and this feat was going to be his ace in the hole for surprise attacks when the undead werent expecting it. One of my favorite concepts i think i've ever seen. Also the race was a changling so thats always sweet.

[Lobolusk]

can you use vampire touch on a ghost?

[Ravingdork]

Lobolusk wrote:

can you use vampire touch on a ghost?

Not normally, no. Ghosts are undead, and the spell traditionally only works on living creatures. The thanatopic spell metamagic feat MIGHT fix that, but that is still being discussed here.

[draykhar]

It seems to me like the target of the spell is "Living creature touched"
A thanatopic spell "pierces defenses and immunities that protect against death effects, negative levels, and energy drain, affecting the target as if the protective barrier did not exist.", but it doesn't change the target of the spell.
Perhaps (as flavor) it's because even if you managed to use the spell to absorb life force from an undead, all you'd manage to do is absorb negative energy (the life force for undead)

That's just my take on it though. :)

[Foghammer]

I actually think Draykhar has the best answer so far, but to expound ont it...

I might be inclined to allow it at my table; however since the energies that heal/harm the living/dead function the way they do, the energy you steal from the undead would actually harm you because it's negative energy. Not really ideal, but it's how I would interpret it.

[Skylancer4]

Foghammer wrote:

I actually think Draykhar has the best answer so far, but to expound ont it...

I might be inclined to allow it at my table; however since the energies that heal/harm the living/dead function the way they do, the energy you steal from the undead would actually harm you because it's negative energy. Not really ideal, but it's how I would interpret it.

Even if you were to allow it to work, the spell would never "go off" as the target would be invalid. You would need some way to alter the target parameter or the spell would be wasted on an undead target RAW.