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Question: Can the banishment effect occur even if the initial will save passes i.e. if the create's initial will save passes, but due to the -4 penalty can the banishment still occur?
Background: In this week's game, the game master (me) allowed the banishment of a Nightshade, Nightwing. The creature saved versus Dictum cast by a L14 cleric, but the -4 penality scripted in the text below, suggested the banishment could still have an effect.
PRD: "Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonlawful extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the dictum or not. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate."
Post-script: As an after thought, the creature's hp are made from 17d8+119, does this mean it's a 17 HD creature, even though the CR is only 14? (This is just a side question, because in retrospect I might have disallowed banishment based on the following from PRD: "Creatures whose Hit Dice exceed your caster level are unaffected by dictum.") But, I'd still like to know the answer to the first question: can the banishment occur with Dictum, even if the initial will save passes?
THANKS!!!
(1) Yes, in my opinion the banishment effect requires a separate Will save at -4.
(2) As you note, the creature's hit dice were too large so it wouldn't have worked anyway.
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(1) Yes, in my opinion the banishment effect requires a separate Will save at -4.
(2) As you note, the creature's hit dice were too large so it wouldn't have worked anyway.
O.o good. Thanks Hogarth for the clarity.
I'm okay with my ruling since the player character had been eagerly looking forward to using dictum for a long time. It made for a good player experience.In the future, I will need to note the HD of the creature to disallow it's effects on those grounds.
It also seems my understanding of the writing style of the Bestiaries are correct e.g. the 17d8 is indeed the exact place to find the old-school HD amount in Pathfinder materials, and should be used in spite of the CR, as I must have used at-a-glace in the heat of adjudicating combat.
Thanks a lot.
Yes, in my opinion the banishment effect requires a separate Will save at -4.
Hmm... would this be a separate roll, or do I compare one single roll (once at +0, one at -4) to the DC?
Unless I am mistaken, the primary effects of these 'word' spells allowed no save in 3.5; Pathfinder added a 'save negates' or 'save reduces' line to every single effect line of the spell, leavin the rest unchanged... which makes the resulting wording... clunky.
It also seems my understanding of the writing style of the Bestiaries are correct e.g. the 17d8 is indeed the exact place to find the old-school HD amount in Pathfinder materials, and should be used in spite of the CR, as I must have used at-a-glace in the heat of adjudicating combat.
However, keep in mind that if you pile a few templates on the creature (giant advanced fiendish half-dragon, for example), this will bump up the CR... while leaving the HD, and thus the vulnerability to this spell, pretty much unchanged.