I have two questions regarding using wands.
1. If you have a high enough UMD to succeed even if you roll a 1 and roll a natural 1, do you succeed? Or are you locked out for 24 hours. The rules say if you roll a 1 AND fail.
2. What would the DC be for a 9th level Magus trying to use a wand to cast a level 4 spell that will be on it's list, (however it can only currently cast level 3 spells)? Is it a 20? the same as a level 1 rogue who would never get that spell? I don't see a DC for trying to emulate a level.
1. If you have a high enough UMD to succeed even if you roll a 1 and roll a natural 1, do you succeed? Or are you locked out for 24 hours. The rules say if you roll a 1 AND fail.
There is no rule of auto-failing your skill check on a 1. So, if a 1 is enough numerically, you've just successfully activated the device.
(Actually, you can declare to 'take 1', aka not roll at all, if there is no chance of failure).2. What would the DC be for a 9th level Magus trying to use a wand to cast a level 4 spell that will be on it's list, (however it can only currently cast level 3 spells)? Is it a 20? the same as a level 1 rogue who would never get that spell? I don't see a DC for trying to emulate a level.
If the spell is on your list, there is no need for UMD. There is zero necessity to be of the required level, to have the required stat, or whatever.
If the spell, for whatever reason, is not on your class list, the DC for a wand is a flat 20. There is no need for emulating a level, a stat, or whatever.*le sigh* Ninjas everywhere...
Thank you both. :-)
So if a 1st level character comes across a wand containing a 9th level spell there's no check involved at all? That seems... silly to me.
Like blackbloodtroll stated, there are no wands with level 9 spells.
However, a mere level 1 paladin who comes across a wand of holy sword (a level 4 paladin spell he won't be able to cast until at least Level 13, when he has a caster level of 10) can merrily employ that wand, without any check whatsoever. The fact that his current caster level is nonexistant is utterly... irrelevant.
If the spell is on your list, there is no need for UMD. There is zero necessity to be of the required level, to have the required stat, or whatever.
If the spell, for whatever reason, is not on your class list, the DC for a wand is a flat 20. There is no need for emulating a level, a stat, or whatever.
I always thought it was kind of odd why scrolls are more difficult to use. To first use one, it is 20 + caster level, where a wand is only a straight 20 DC. You also need to emulate an ability score for a scroll (if you don't have the correct stat high enough), but not a wand.
Not sure why it works this way as both are considered 'casting the spell'.
It's due to the way they work. Scrolls are spell completion items. You're actually finishing casting the spell.
Wands are like semi-automatic weapons. The spell's already done, just need to fire it.
(Roughly)
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If the spell is on your list, there is no need for UMD. There is zero necessity to be of the required level, to have the required stat, or whatever.
If the spell, for whatever reason, is not on your class list, the DC for a wand is a flat 20. There is no need for emulating a level, a stat, or whatever.
I always thought it was kind of odd why scrolls are more difficult to use. To first use one, it is 20 + caster level, where a wand is only a straight 20 DC. You also need to emulate an ability score for a scroll, but not a wand.
Not sure why it works this way as both are considered 'casting the spell'.
Scrolls are spell completion items while wands are spell trigger items, hence the difference.
Ah yes, I see what you mean.
Is using a wand the same as activating a magic item (besides oil or potion)? Or is it considered casting a spell? I'm guessing it's the first.
There's also a check involved when using a scroll of a higher caster level than you, even if it's on your spell list - the DC is easy (d20+caster level vs scroll's caster level). There's no such limitation on wands. Thus using a scroll with UMD is harder than using a wand.
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Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.
A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word.
The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells detect magic, identify, and analyze dweomer all reveal command words if the properties of the item are successfully identified.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
@Hobbun: In general, no. Most magic items are Command Word or Use Activated items.
There's also a check involved when using a scroll of a higher caster level than you, even if it's on your spell list - the DC is easy (d20+caster level vs scroll's caster level). There's no such limitation on wands. Thus using a scroll with UMD is harder than using a wand.
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Yes, realized that recently and actually called my DM on it. He had been pretty free about the use of scrolls. As long as you had it on your spell list, and the corresponding ability was high enough, he didn’t force a roll. He didn’t even have us decipher scrolls.
It wasn’t as if he houseruled all of that in, he just wasn’t aware of it, and we all went along with it.
** spoiler omitted **...
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Thank you.
Looks like we’ve been playing that wrong, as well. We’ve always had it that wands provoke an AoO.
There's also a check involved when using a scroll of a higher caster level than you, even if it's on your spell list - the DC is easy (d20+caster level vs scroll's caster level). There's no such limitation on wands. Thus using a scroll with UMD is harder than using a wand..
Yes, realized that recently and actually called my DM on it. He had been pretty free about the use of scrolls. As long as you had it on your spell list, and the corresponding ability was high enough, he didn’t force a roll. He didn’t even have us decipher scrolls.
It wasn’t as if he houseruled all of that in, he just wasn’t aware of it, and we all went along with it.
That's fairly common, I think. I often don't bother making my players do that, myself.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There's also a check involved when using a scroll of a higher caster level than you, even if it's on your spell list - the DC is easy (d20+caster level vs scroll's caster level). There's no such limitation on wands. Thus using a scroll with UMD is harder than using a wand.
Nitpick: the DC is CL+1, not CL.
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Looks like we’ve been playing that wrong, as well. We’ve always had it that wands provoke an AoO.
Yeah, the magic item activation rules are pretty detailed and you have to really grok them in their entirety in order to run using items correctly. After AoOs, it seems to be the area that new players and groups seem to struggle with the most due to the fine distinctions involved.
The funny (or sad?) thing about it is we are far from being a ‘new’ group, we’ve been together for over 10 years playing 3.x and Pathfinder.
It is possible we originally played correctly, but I don’t remember. Things sometime change over time and we ‘think’ plays a certain way, and it becomes normal (even if it may be wrong).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The funny (or sad?) thing about it is we are far from being a ‘new’ group, we’ve been together for over 10 years playing 3.x and Pathfinder.
It is possible we originally played correctly, but I don’t remember. Things sometime change over time and we ‘think’ plays a certain way, and it becomes normal (even if it may be wrong).
If people were like you and able to admit how easily that can happen, there'd be a lot less arguing on this forum. :/
You can't use a wand for 24 hours if you roll a natural 1 AND fail.
So if you can't fail the check, there's no effect on a natural 1.
If people were like you and able to admit how easily that can happen, there'd be a lot less arguing on this forum. :/
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Thanks!
I’ve never been one to afraid to admit I am wrong, because it happens enough times.
What I really need to do is just sit down and read the Core Rulebook (and the Ultimate books) cover to back. And then do it again, and again, and again. I am guessing I am going to find other things we’ve forgotten or didn’t implement.
Although I will admit, no matter how much I read the Magic Item creation rules, I scratch my head sometimes :) But that is for another thread.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The funny (or sad?) thing about it is we are far from being a ‘new’ group, we’ve been together for over 10 years playing 3.x and Pathfinder.
It is possible we originally played correctly, but I don’t remember. Things sometime change over time and we ‘think’ plays a certain way, and it becomes normal (even if it may be wrong).
I would guess that as a percentage the number of groups that regularly 'break' rules without being aware like this is huge. It's kind of like driving a car though, a lot can be wrong before the it stops working entirely and a lot of things can go wrong and you don't even notice it.
