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I am going to do the 1 hp, roll a save versus automatic damage spells with my minions but I was wondering what other house rules some of you have? Specifically, do you use average damage? Ex: instead of rolling 1d6 for a minions short sword damage, it just always does 3 damage.
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In mutants and mastermind you can take a 10 on attack rolls vs minions.
I didn't really like minions from 4th edition and I don't think they fit PF well, something guaranteed to drop from one hit isn't going to be risky or drain resources. As an occasional special encounter I can see their use though.
In the end do what helps you the most. Weather minions always aid another non minion if possible, or are auto crit on any attack it's up to you.
I would make minions support other monsters, when possible they will prioritize buffing them and helping them, even readying actions to provoke AoO and waking people up, and running for help early and operating traps/heavy equipment offensively. Rules wise I would make hits against them auto crit, and not directly let on who is a minion.
I agree they are only useful in specific circumstances. I am going to use them as skeleton horde raised by a necromancer. I like the cinematic side of it. The PCs will have to wade through them in pursuit.
For multiple minor opponents, such as goblins or kobolds, I tend to disregard hit points when I have a whole bunch of them and of six party members one or two have chance of *not* one-hitting them (Bard with bow that deals 1d8+3 beyond point-blank, Witch does not attack physically 95% of time anyway).
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I use the 1hp minions a lot in big fights. Ex: the PC's enter a wide open hall supported by massive pillars soaring into darkness high above. In the distance a noise, like hissing laughter. "You not in bright world no more, stupid man-child!" With that you see a swarm of goblins surging in from the blackness beyond.
In this encounter I had 4 minions to each elite (characters were 3rd level.) Minions had 1hp, died on a failed save; ripped right out of 4e. The elites were classed goblins and together they formed war-bands. One war-band was sawblade rippers (saw-toothed short swords) and the leader was the one with fighter levels and 2wf. Aother war band were dog-boys; 4 melee-punchers with spikes supporting a worg. The third were dedites; 4 1hp zombies buffed and controlled by a distant cleric.
Now I've run minions a few different ways in the past: elites have class levels while minions are NPC classed (3 Warrior minions serving a Ranger for example), also had a pit full of ghoul "minions" that were in fact ghouls w/1 hp and the "young" template on them.
The spirit of the minion is: there's a lot of them, your PCs can rip through them easily and they don't amount to much individually in a fight. Any mechanic that works to that spirit (even just doing no bookeeping at all and saying "it dies" when you say it does) is a good minion mechanic.
Man, this is a good thread; I hope it keeps going. Now if you'll excuse me I have a horde of mites to put together...
Great input Mark! Love that encounter, perfect for minions. I really like the war-band idea. I might steal a little from that and use minions in that fashion more in the future.
I agree, I hope to hear some more examples of minion encounters from others.
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I have run "angry mobs" when my players incite them, happens more often than I'd like in some games XD.
The first time this jerk named Haydon got pissed at a merchant and burned his shop down. the villagers formed a mob to take down the "evil" (actually CN) wizard.
Haydon (wizard) "oh I can take a few of angry villagers"
Vule (rouge) "well they are like level 1-2 commoners right?"
Me (DM) "they are a mob actually"
Haydon "so? there's a lot of them I can make the concentration checks, scare them off with a magic missle or two?"
(casts...)
Me: "your magic missle hits pavement"
Haydon "what?"
Me: "angry mob... a swarm of medium creatures, with traits that apply. they have mental traits simmilar to mad monkeys. a swarm of humans is also armed, and thus has a higher damage of 5d6 each turn, no roll to hit if they enter your square."
Haydon "how many hit points?"
Me: "I can't tell you that Haydon."
Haydon: "I prepped a few fireballs"
epolouge: Haydon turned NE about half way through igniting villagers, ran out of area of affect spells, and could not escape the mob. he was torn to shreds.
Wouldn't the mob have routed after two fireballs?
Got to say, poor form on saying the magic missile doesn't work, when there are an abundance of targets.
I like the mob/swarm rules, and I have used them for certain things, but the traits seem off given the subjects. Commoners are not immune to psychology or immune to fear because they are a part of a group. If normal people can become so angry, they can move to other emotional states and eventually disperse/flee, unless they are now no longer humans. A swarm of humans can also be a devilish way to deny melee chars the chance for cleave and great cleave. Temporarily crazy makes them more than humans, and makes a number of feats intended to be used on advancing and encircling infantry useless. That is where it breaks down for me, and why humans should not be swarms.
Seen swarm rules used before too, party got thrashed by a goblin parent and baby swarm, whereas if we fought the same numbers not in a swarm, we would be fine. Dm dnd't seem to get how hugely different it is, and swarm allows weak combatants to suddenly become one strong combatant with less weaknesses. If you sit back, keep distance you are fine, but if you close at low level, torn toast on the floor.
As for the central question, naa, I don't use minion rules. I have weak minion opponents to be sure, but no one has 1 hp except babies.
My lowest tier of combatants range quite a bit in ability and capacity for strategy. A simple guardsman, pirate, merc can actually be quite dangerous in the right situation, so I don't make them (or goblins) insta-killed after a light jab.
Lately in my game, the local experts with some weapon proficiencies in polearms and spears have been doing well. Dispersed farmstead militia.
I used a minion-like rule at the end of my last campaign. I like to use mobs of weaker monsters. It was rather loosely defined, but it was something like:
1 critical and it was defeated
1 failed save and it was defeated.
Single blow dealing more than 50% hp and it was defeated.
Defeated didn't necessarily meant dead, it meant out-of-action; either knocked-out, feinting death, bleeding to death, crying for mercy, running away (and not meaning to come back with reinforcement) etc.
Basically, defeated meant beyond the characters' worries...
Most humanoids that were not considered elite or chieftains/bosses qualified as minions, but there was no hardline.
'findel
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Wouldn't the mob have routed after two fireballs?
Got to say, poor form on saying the magic missile doesn't work, when there are an abundance of targets.
I like the mob/swarm rules, and I have used them for certain things, but the traits seem off given the subjects. Commoners are not immune to psychology or immune to fear because they are a part of a group. If normal people can become so angry, they can move to other emotional states and eventually disperse/flee, unless they are now no longer humans. A swarm of humans can also be a devilish way to deny melee chars the chance for cleave and great cleave. Temporarily crazy makes them more than humans, and makes a number of feats intended to be used on advancing and encircling infantry useless. That is where it breaks down for me, and why humans should not be swarms.
this guy was a bit of a stoner, and had been harassing these villagers for at least three game sessions, including declaring "I am your GOD" in the village square, he was a public pain in the ass, but had not done anything illegal, and this was a small town, not much of a city guard beyond a sheriff or local baron. the igniting of the general store was the final straw.
if a swarm's Hp gets low enough it doesn't die it "disperses" I had them make will saves behind the screen when he hit them with the fireballs.
came up with rules for "mob mentality" on the fly, but in movies and books angry mobs are a danger to vampires, werewolves and such.
I really should have made rules for it
Hhahahahahahahaha! I read that as, the guy was a bit of a stoner, and had been harassing the villagers for at least three generations! Fair is fair I thought, then I saw sessions.
I love that the mob can and did tear him to pieces (game of thrones anyone?), just not sure all of the swarm traits adequately or properly apply. Would they walk through a flame wall to get to him? If he had been of higher level and cast that? Would any one of them made it through the wall if they weren't a swarm? Problems emerge.
1HD creatures with large Str scores. Can't take a hit, but have a higher attack bonus.
This is an important insight. I use minions in PF, but it's more than "they die on one hit", they also have to be a significant threat, even though individually they can be ignored.
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Minions have always struck me as horrible ideas. Why have a special rule for them when nearly all level one NPC-class ordinary races are generally one-hit kills? Level one commoner -- average 3 HP. Level expert: average 4 HP. Level 1 Warrior: average 6 HP. The average damage from a level 1 fighter with a greatsword is 10 even if he only has a paltry 15 strength.
You can do that, but since the low level combatants cant hit, the party will probably just ignore them. The advantage of the minion idea is not 'they only have one hit point' - that's just a book-keeping thing that reduces the amount of information one has to track. The important feature is that in 4E hordes of 'minor' monsters can pose a significant challenge to higher level PCs even though each of them, taken alone, would be a trivial challenge.
Minions have always struck me as horrible ideas. Why have a special rule for them when nearly all level one NPC-class ordinary races are generally one-hit kills? Level one commoner -- average 3 HP. Level expert: average 4 HP. Level 1 Warrior: average 6 HP. The average damage from a level 1 fighter with a greatsword is 10 even if he only has a paltry 15 strength.
the thing is that a "minion" doesn't have to be a 1st level commoner.
In a 15th level game, the 5th level orc fighters are probably "minions" in the encounter comprising of an orc warlord, its shaman adviser, and their four 10th level bodyguards.
"minions" can be taken as creatures that by themselves are not a challenge, but make the main challenger harder to defeat because of the minions' support. If the character can safely ignore them, they're below minion material; minion need to be annoying enough so that they cannot be ignored, but easily dispatched.
In a traditional 3.5/pathfinder game, every single hp, every single condition is supposed to count, but the minion rule attempt to abstract that for the support part of the encounter, instead focusing on the main antagonist(s).
'findel
I am going to do the 1 hp, roll a save versus automatic damage spells with my minions but I was wondering what other house rules some of you have? Specifically, do you use average damage? Ex: instead of rolling 1d6 for a minions short sword damage, it just always does 3 damage.
The minion rules were the thing I liked most about 4E (and I used them liberally), but then realized that I didn't need them because I was already doing the exact same thing in 3.x before 4E was ever a thought, and I was doing in ways that didn't break verisimilitude, while having much better and more dynamic combats.
I can do pretty much the same thing in any game where minions are suitable. In my opinion, disposable mooks shouldn't begin showing up until you're around 4th level at minimum, because it's around this point you are beginning to excel as something more than a normal human.
Looking at CR 4, you can get about 8 low-HP CR 1/3 enemies into that battle, or even 12 CR 1/4 into that encounter. I have my mooks. Most will die in a single hit, some won't, and due to the way the system works, they can do a little (or a lot) of damage to the PCs.
I basically realized there was no need for minion rules. The normal rules work great and don't lead to weird and bizarre situations like 1 shotting a balor with a flick of your sword, when the game tells you that 4 1 HP balors equal 1 full HP balor. >.>
Minions have always struck me as horrible ideas. Why have a special rule for them when nearly all level one NPC-class ordinary races are generally one-hit kills? Level one commoner -- average 3 HP. Level expert: average 4 HP. Level 1 Warrior: average 6 HP. The average damage from a level 1 fighter with a greatsword is 10 even if he only has a paltry 15 strength.
For me it's simply about book-keeping. Allows for bigger, more cinematic fights without the same level of book-keeping. Cuts a lot of time off of combat in situations where the PCs "should" win anyway.
1HD creatures with large Str scores. Can't take a hit, but have a higher attack bonus.This is an important insight. I use minions in PF, but it's more than "they die on one hit", they also have to be a significant threat, even though individually they can be ignored.
That's the other thing I'm looking into, how to best represent their threat. I'd like to know how TriOmega figured those strength bonuses.
For me the 1hp minion rules introduces more problems than it solves.
My players would quickly realize that a 0 level Acid Splash will take out that that high level Hill Giant minion in one shot and use that. Or just use that worthless necklace of fireballs 3d6 fireball to take out a bunch.
So then you introduce the idea that if they make their save against an AoE spell that they take no damage. But what if the Wizard casts an Empowered Maximized Fireball against a bunch of cold based creatures that really should die even on a successful save? What do you do then? Just arbitrarily make an exception in that case?
I run combats with lots of lower level creatures supporting the big bad guy all the time. They may not hit very often, but they do hit sometimes. It might take one hit to take them out, or two or more. The party can try to ignore them, but they still get in the way. Any attack against a minion is damage that is not directed against the BBEG.
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That's the other thing I'm looking into, how to best represent their threat. I'd like to know how TriOmega figured those strength bonuses.
Roughly able to hit the lowest AC in the party on a 10. Adjust for parties without a wide variance of AC scores.
Yes this means the mooks have ridiculous Str scores and deal huge damage on a single hit. Describe them as musclebound lunkheads.
Ability scores are the easiest method of adjusting creature difficulty, and is fairly invisible to players.
Ability scores are the easiest method of adjusting creature difficulty, and is fairly invisible to players.
Fear my squad of INT 38 commoners!!!
They can't survive a hit, let alone deliver one. They can't make a saving throw to save their life but boy, do they ever know how to speak languages!
What are they, polyglots? :)
With their 11 bonus languages and a bit of diversity, my squad can speak every relevant language there is! They are also smart enough to know that they are rubbish at fighting... They're also smarter than me. All of them.
In retrospect, Intelligence wasn't the best stat to boost for my minions...
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Just spitballing some ideas here. To me, a minion should be able to do the following things:
- 4 of these should equal a CR of the PC's level
- hit a PC about 25% of the time
- be hit by a PC about 50% of the time
- make a saving throw about 50% of the time
- be able to do about 10% of the PC's hp in damage
- be able to take 2 hits before dying, or 1 crit hit
- probably 1 or 2 other minor special abilities (resistances, DR, regeneration, sneak attack, etc)
So what if minions had different rules than a standard monster stat block?
Once they unionize, it's all over.
that's a campaign plot right there!
I sometimes use mob rules, but not minions.
So for my fey campaign at first level:
Minion = 1 unmodified mite
Elite = mite Mischief Maker (bard 1)
BBEG = Imbleblick, m mite ranger 4
Encounters:
4 minions, 1 giant spider, scattered in an underground pillar hall/CR1
1 elite 2 minions in a Small hallway with an open pit in the middle/CR1
BBEG + 2 minions and a pair of house centipede swarms. BBEG flies above the fray on his giant beetle while below the minions command the swarms to keep the PCs at bay. Fight takes place in an abandoned mine shaft/CR4
I sometimes use mob rules, but not minions.
I have a group of L6 players, and the Mob rules as written is a gargantuan, 30 HD amalgamation, which seems a bit rough for a relatively low-level group. Did you just use the stock Mob, or did you scale the Mob up or down?
Mite minions were a rousing success. Almost a total devestation though; unbeknownst to me my players made ranged elite-killers w/their builds so having a mob of mites against 1 or 2 really awesome single-foe attacks led to some tough fights. The non-optimized dwarf fighter NPC ended up holding a single square of 2 to create a bottleneck and the healer stood at the end of the hall using her channel to keep him on his feet.
That's my ONLY warning about mobs and minions: they're almost as bad as swarms if your party doesn't have multi-foe or splash weapon capability. If I'd wanted to KILL the party I'd have had one of the mites summon a swarm of centipedes to form BEHIND the cleric; instant death, no bleeding.
Ah well, I'm a softie. Any more thoughts on minions?
I sometimes use mob rules, but not minions.I have a group of L6 players, and the Mob rules as written is a gargantuan, 30 HD amalgamation, which seems a bit rough for a relatively low-level group. Did you just use the stock Mob, or did you scale the Mob up or down?
I use a homemade mob template that I can apply to most creatures if they're in a group. I don't have it on the computer, but the basics are:
Use base HD + 1/3 of the total HD of extra creatures for hp, saves, BAB and such (but no extra skills or feats), face/reach, CMB, CMD and weapon damage increases (as if size increase) once plus once more if there's 6, 12, 25, 50 or 100 creatures. And for each size increase, a -2 penalty to dexterity-based stuff and a +2 bonus to str-based stuff (incl. damage and counting half again for two-handed/PA). Basically, a -4/+4 ability bonus that doesn't affect the stuff that's hard to calculate.When a mod has taken half it's hit points in damage it loses one of the "size increases" and the same happens at 1/4 hp and from there it doesn't decrease further.
Plus some other minor side rules, mostly when it comes to how it interferes with spells and so on (basically unusually resistant to mind-affecting spells and the like, and unusually weak against AoE damage spells).
So a band of 10 ogres look something like this:
CE Large/Gargantuan humanoid (giant)
Init –5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 10, touch 5, flat-footed 10 (+4 armor, –5 Dex, +5 natural, –4 size)
hp 120 (16d8+48)
Fort +12, Ref +0, Will +7
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft. base)
Melee greatclub +20 (4d8+14)
Ranged javelin +7 (3d6+9)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21 (29), Dex 8 (0), Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +19; CMD 30 (immune to disarm, trip)
Feats Iron Will, Toughness
Skills Climb +11, Perception +5
Languages Giant
(Just thrown together hastily so there might be errors)
I'm also a big fan of using Mob rules, modfied from the DMG II as needed.
I've used the minion rule for years without problems. Though the rule can be abused by particularly savvy players, I don't really care too much anymore. The d20 D&D rule have always been frustratingly easy to throw out of whack and resistant to house rules, but after almost 12 years I've stopped fighting back. I don't really worry any more about doing things "by the rules". We've abandoned attacks of opportunity, for example. I think the key to making minions work is to let go and not worry about the game as much as the story.
I use minions all the time. My party knows they are out there, but they never know which guys. It makes most small encounters feel so much bigger than they are. They have 1 hp, so I don't need to track damage. They do minimum damage, so I don't need to roll it. They are worth 10% of the Xp, so the players can't live off them. They give no usable treasure. It's all too poor quality to resell, or it breaks, or is used up. But they can't ignore them. Minions keep parties off the ONE GUY with class levels and HP's. They use wands to terrifying effect. They move fast, and I let damn near anything kill them.
AND MY PLAYERS ARE TERRIFIED OF THEM.
They make NPC's in the AP's that people one round on the boards, very difficult, memorable battles for my players. Plus, when the one guy with HP's gets away, the whole party feels it, and hes's memorable. "He'll be back, won't he? Sonnoffa! We almost had him!
I also use elites and bosses, and they can make a 3rd level kobold rogue the greatest, scariest villain a 5th level party has ever failed to defeat...three times.
Minions allow me to "throw in five more" on a whim, for tension, to herd characters towards something, or anything else. No stats aside from AC and attack, for the most part, are needed. "Ugh, reinforcements!"
Have ten minions, and some will critical. Even on minimal damage, it eats away a PC quickly if ignored. And it takes resources and actions that are normally applied against the main bad guy, while the bad guy attacks the party unhindered the entire combat.
Even out of combat. Minions aiding another in convincing a judge of the parties guilt in a situation. Citizens fleeing the bad guys up ahead, with debris and fireballs reigning down, dropping them like flies, but there is so many it's difficult for the characters to approach.
Nothing more scary than a room of minion pacifist clerics, healing your bad guy every round, because he is their ruler. Do you kill them? They are pacifist old men who've done nothing to you. They aren't evil, just obedient and law abiding in their duties. It's evil to kill them...
I LOVE minions. *evil laugh*
Using minions, elites and bosses has created some of the most intense, threatening, memorable campaigns, encounters, battles and villains ever for me and my victims...err, heroes. :)
I am going to do the 1 hp, roll a save versus automatic damage spells with my minions but I was wondering what other house rules some of you have? Specifically, do you use average damage? Ex: instead of rolling 1d6 for a minions short sword damage, it just always does 3 damage.
We use minions all the time. They generally have the full statistics of whatever creature they represent, merely with a single hit point and we roll for damage as normal. We generally will replace half of a group of generic bad guys with twice as many minions (1 Orc or 2 Orc minions both equal same CR), and generally only for medium or smaller humanoids or dumb creatures. They can be used to enhance a boss fight or added in the middle of an encounter whenever the PC's are having too easy a time of it - they are usually used to make fights more interesting, not simpler to adjudicate.
Now here's a thought; why not just use creatures 4 cr below the party? Ex: a kobold warrior 1 is a CR 1/4 creature. For a compelling monster battle: 4 kobolds gathered around a CR 3 awakened tatzlwyrm. The wyrm works like a low-level mastermind directing traffic and the kobolds (thinking of it like a kind of dragon saint) go crinos on the party.
I've done this in my last game with mites. So there's minion mites (standard mite w/no mods); elites (mite with 2 levels of NPC or 1 level of PC, making them each CR 1/2); or bosses (mite with 3 NPC/2 PC, making them CR 1); and then giant vermin thrown in unchanged to add or subtract from the encounter by anywhere from 1/3 to 1 CR.
some example encounters:
A boss fight w/a mite witch 2 in a cave where she's about to complete a ritual and turn a bunch of killer bees into Giant Vermin.
A minor encounter with a minion mite riding a giant spider.
An elite/CR3 fight with 2 elite warrior 2 mites directing 5 minions and 2 giant fire beetles (CR 1/3).
To be sure I ALSO use the 1hp minions, but sometimes it's nice to un-mod the rules and just go with it.
For me the 1hp minion rules introduces more problems than it solves.
My players would quickly realize that a 0 level Acid Splash will take out that that high level Hill Giant minion in one shot and use that. Or just use that worthless necklace of fireballs 3d6 fireball to take out a bunch.
So then you introduce the idea that if they make their save against an AoE spell that they take no damage. But what if the Wizard casts an Empowered Maximized Fireball against a bunch of cold based creatures that really should die even on a successful save? What do you do then? Just arbitrarily make an exception in that case?
I run combats with lots of lower level creatures supporting the big bad guy all the time. They may not hit very often, but they do hit sometimes. It might take one hit to take them out, or two or more. The party can try to ignore them, but they still get in the way. Any attack against a minion is damage that is not directed against the BBEG.
Well, for one thing I wouldn't have a giant as a minion. They should be anonymous and minor, the kind of things that would make up a horde. Orcs, goblins , skeletons, human fighters, etc. If the spellcaster uses a cantrip or low-level spell to take one or two out, that's fine with me: it ate up his action, and that's what the minions are there for, to be taken out en masse.
Regarding the cold-based critters (maybe some ice mephits?), what I do with minions is give them evasion as long as there are three or more of them, and unless I'm mistaken, a cold-based monster with evasion wouldn't take damage from a fireball anyway, right? But if I feel an exception is warranted, I have no problem using one. Maybe I'll just make it clear this is a one-time deal or something.
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I discovered something amazing . At 6th level plus, if you throw APL -4 or less monsters at PCs they make great minions. PCs can plough through then like hot knives through warm butter.
Recently I had my 9th level PCs face a Fetch Ranger/Assassin (CR 10) and a group of 6 Shae minions (CR 4 each). The Shae went down in a round or two, but it meant the Ranger/Assassin had time to get off some of his tricks and cool stuff.
I guess what I'm saying is: Get more shelf-life out of your monsters, throw completely outclassed creatures at your PCs occasionally. No special rules required (and makes spells like fireball and the like more valuable).
Yeah, one thing to note is how you use lower-CR opponents. I've heard proponents of minion rules explain how usually low-CR minions aren't dangerous because they can't hit and so on... And I simply don't agree. I think many low-cr opponents can have a fairly good chance of hitting, especially when using combat maneouvers and flanking. If a 4th level fighter is attacked by 5 1st level warriors with clubs that just stands there whackin' at him, he'll think "wha'evah!" but when they gang up on him, flanking and aiding another, and trip/grapple him to the ground, it's a whole different story.
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I created a template that I like to use:
Minion Template
Creatures modified by the minion template must be of medium size or smaller, Reduce the base creature hit points to 1, they become immune to magical and special ability secondary affects due to failed saving throws, AC -4 and CR -3. For effects dependent on hit dice, a minion's effective hit dice are equal to the base creature divided by 2.
I'm also a fan of a modified mob template for handling mass combats with characters.
@SB: I had a trio of kobolds, CR 1/2 rogue 2's (thug arch) supporting a bugbear warrior 3. It was a good fight since the kobolds did exactly what you said; ganged up, used teamwork feats, and hit the barbarian for 4D6 plus Frightened for a round; he ran away from these wicked little pests while the rest of the party was dealing with the bugbear.
Of course, then he returned, wailed on the critters, and the fight was over 2 rounds later, but still. Classic to see 3 small kobolds send a big bad barbarian packing after kneeing him in the groin and whacking his shins and such!