Why Shot on the Run?


Rules Questions


I see people work Shot on the Run into their archer builds fairly regularly. But I don't really get it. You can move, shoot, and move again as long as you don't exceed your speed.

I admittedly don't have a lot of experience at the gaming table compared to some folks, but I just can't think of situations where that ability would be useful enough to warrant taking up one of your precious feat slots.

The only case I can figure where you would even want to use it would be to dart in and out of certain ranges... you could hang out at the outer limit of your range increment, move in 15 feet to be within range, move back 15 feet... but the outer limit of your range increment is usually so far away that you wouldn't need to worry about avoiding an enemy's counterattack.

Is there something I'm missing?


The first thing that came to mind: You need to be within 30 ft to perform a ranged sneak attack, and you may want to be outside 30 ft when the opponent's turn comes about again.

Edit: It also allows you to move out from behind a wall, shoot, and then move back behind the wall (keeping total concealment from your targets).

Edit2: Edit ninja'd by Sniggevert :)


How about moving out from total cover, shoot, move back behind cover with the rest of your movement? Limiting your attacks, but makes a bow defender dangerous and hard to get to with a proper setup.


I could see it for a sniper Rogue build. Combine it with stealth to begin and end your turn behind cover so you can do sneak attack damage with your rnaged attack.


Nope, you hit it on the head. You use shot on the run to move from a point where shooting is not advantageous, to a point where it is advantageous, and then to another point where you are presumably safe.

Two examples come to mind: Shooting from behind allies gives the enemy cover so you move out from behind allies, shoot, and them move back behind allies.

Shooting from cover would also work similarly.

It should be combined with the Vital Strike tree IF they ever got VS to work right. Many people houserule that Vital Strike can be combined with Spring Attack (and thus Shot on the Run).

- Gauss

Dark Archive

Normally you can only:

1, shoot, move.

2, move, shoot.

Shot on the Run allows you to:

move, shoot, move.

More options = good. You never know when you need it. This is assuming you can afford the feat. Sometimes it's just not possible because the character needs other feats to do other things or to shore up weakness.


CountMRVHS wrote:

I see people work Shot on the Run into their archer builds fairly regularly.

Is there something I'm missing?

Wow, I'm amazed that people are paying 3 feats for this! It's not worth it.

Get and ride a mount. Do the same thing but full attack instead of a single attack.

Really it needs to have dodge & mobility removed from the prereqs. It still won't shatter anything.

Btw, why are those people spending 3 feats for this?

-James


I started to make a similar point about rogues and sneak attack, but ended up changing my mind because it seems *extremely* situational that a rogue would be able to make a ranged sneak attack in that manner. But even if a rogue found himself winning initiative 40 feet away from an enemy, he could still move 10' and shoot.

Not in the surprise round, though.

I guess just doing the above would leave the rogue vulnerable to an attack from the creature he just hit, so... I guess I can see the use. But man, you'd have to wait for just the right situation it seems.

I totally get the idea behind Spring Attack. I guess with archer, it always seemed to me that you'd want to be well out of melee range anyway, so moving is sort of moot - and archers need lots of feats.

James, I agree... I mean, Dodge is useful, but Mobility? When I've played an archer in the past, in 3.5, I always just ended up 5'-stepping back to keep full-attacking. Of course, I was getting hit every round that way...

But still, seems like an archer's priority should be to stay out of melee range altogether rather than spending feats to mitigate the damage when he makes a poor tactical decision.


CountMRVHS wrote:


James, I agree... I mean, Dodge is useful, but Mobility?

Dodge isn't even all that useful.. there are SO many archery feats out there that even human fighter archers eventually are making choices.

The idea to spend 3 feats on this seems ludicrous. Heck just at the cost of one feat I doubt I would avail myself of it.

If we're talking about a rogue with even fewer feats it seems untenable.

-James

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It can be really good for alchemists. If you are an alchemist, you will if you want be hasted or have expeditious retreat on. So, you can move out from total cover, into a good range, chuck a bomb, and then run back into total cover (your move is 50-60). If you are engaged, your AC (what with shield, haste, a 22 Dex, dodge, nat AC, mobility) will be incredible when you run back 10', throw a bomb, and then run 40-50' into cover.


I have to agree with James. Shot on the Run is just too situational to be worth taking. Sure, I can come up with a handful of situations where it is useful. But, those situations rarely come up in actual game play.

To make it worse, the number of prerequisites is at odds with the appeal of Shot on the Run. At lower levels, moving and shooting is great and is often your only option. But, you don't have the feat slots to take Shot on the Run. At higher levels, you have the feat slots, but giving up your additional attacks by moving is very painful.


It's kind of too bad - I hate when I just can't think of a justifiable option for some piece of content.

Maybe if SotR allowed you to take a shot while moving double your speed... even then, though.

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:


Wow, I'm amazed that people are paying 3 feats for this! It's not worth it.

Get and ride a mount. Do the same thing but full attack instead of a single attack.

Really it needs to have dodge & mobility removed from the prereqs. It still won't shatter anything.

Btw, why are those people spending 3 feats for this?

-James

There's a few hurdles with taking a mount to move while arching. First, you need a class that will give you a mount. Any class can buy a horse and take ranks in Handle Animal and Ride, but if you want to keep that mount alive, you'll want the class ability.

(Once nice thing about having a mount as an archer, is that your mount won't be exposed to nearly as much high high-damage melee combat. But if a wizard takes aim, there could be issues...)

Here's the big one though - there's still a feat cost! One that's worse than Dodge and Mobility, IMO. See, if your mount is taking a double move, you'll take -4 to your ranged attack (-8 if running!). The Mounted Archery feat halves these penalties and you'll need Mounted Combat for that. Unlike Dodge and Mobility, you've now spent two feats that only have any use if you're on a mount.

(A samurai can halve that penalty again, and is great for this build - they get the archery, the mount, and some sweet abilities that make them useful on or off the horse.)

I see why the feat is there, and agree with the above. It's for the sneaky sniper or tactical shooter, not the mounted tank. Note that typing this out has made me think that the samurai, or similarly built ranger or paladin could be a lot of fun (and would be VERY good at surviving).


brreitz wrote:


There's a few hurdles with taking a mount to move while arching.

Not really. You invest in a wand of mount, perhaps a pearl of power if there is a wizard in the party. Done. The mount gets attacked. It dies.. oh well. Get another. No worries.

You don't double move with it and you take no penalties. Your movement will be more than with shot on the run and most importantly you can FULL ATTACK. And for an archer its all about full attacking.

You don't need to spend any feats whatsoever. If you really wish to spend anything and happen to be doing a ranger archer then boon companion might be worthwhile.

-James


How about when you're somewhere you can't take a mount? In a dungeon, a building, the top of a building, on a mountain just to name a few. and yes that's a great way to spend a buff round; mount

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

You still will want to have mounted archery, which itself requires the feat mounted combat, so you are really only 'saving' one feat at the requirement that you have a mount, have a decent ride skill, and have room for the large beast to maneuver. You can take a full attack when your mount takes a single move action, and I would think that would be either before or after the mount's movement. I can't find any place in the rules that says that you can take your full attack in the middle of the mount's movement when the mount takes a move action.


proftobe wrote:
How about when you're somewhere you can't take a mount? In a dungeon, a building, the top of a building, on a mountain just to name a few. and yes that's a great way to spend a buff round; mount

In reverse order, a buff round? What's that? Mount lasts an hour from a wand, think of it like a 10min/level spell.

So you and those 3 feats that you can't afford to spend as an archer do without a mount. What's the point?

And there's nothing saying that you can't have a mount in a dungeon. Ponies are very fashionable.

Really I don't understand the love for spending these 3 feats here. When do you afford them and in lieu of what?

Let's see a fighter archer for a second:

1st level PBS, Precise Shot
2nd level Rapid Shot
3rd level Weapon focus
4th level Weapon Spec
5th level deadly aim
6th level many shot
7th level iron will
8th level improved critical or greater weapon focus
9th level the other that you didn't take at 8th.

If you want you can be human and afford point blank master, or do without improved iron will to do so.

Now if you're talking higher level.. then you ride on the wizard's floating disk spell on your mountaintop, building, dungeon or otherwise anti-pony zone. Heck you could honestly do this at lower mid levels.

And again you're arguing for spending 3 feats (pick the ones above you wish to lose) in order to NOT full attack.

-James


moon glum wrote:
You still will want to have mounted archery

No, you really don't.

Tell you what, you build your archer that has shot on the run. Lets see the feats that you give up for it, let alone the damage you give up when you use it.

As for where it says you fire all of your attacks in the middle of the movement, I think it's in the mounted combat section of the combat chapter. When would you think you would take it? No other time makes sense with the rest of the rules.

-James


If you're also pulling double duty as a ranged tank you step back fire your bow to avoid OA's, and then step forward again.


Shot on the run is good for dex based melee skirmishers who already have the pre-reqs, to give them a little more versatility in combat. Melee doesn't always cut it, so having a ranged sniping alternative (move out of total cover, shoot, move back to total cover) is a good thing to have in the toolbox. Certainly not an optimal use of a feat though, I agree.

Grand Lodge

Xabulba wrote:
If you're also pulling double duty as a ranged tank you step back fire your bow to avoid OA's, and then step forward again.

Say what?

If you are ranged, you aren't going to be much of a tank.
If you are a tank, you are going to be wielding a melee weapon, where your nominally high Strength gives a lot of damage, and you can full attack with it.

Dodge: Okay, but not terribly impressive for a melee build, very little use for a properly played ranged build.

Mobility: Terrific for a Rogue who needs to move around his opponent to get flanking, if he doesn't have a good Dex and/or isn't trained in Acrobatics.

Shot on the Run: Ummmm. Why? For less overall cost, at least if you are a Fighter (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master), Ranger (Weapon Focus, Point Blank Master) or Zen Archer (archetype feature), you can get your full attack in, with your bow, while being based.

And, honestly, unless your party is of an odd composition (I have experienced this in PFS play), your archer will, instead be staying back behind your real tanks. 30' for PBS, or 110' for first range increment for a composite longbow.

We won't even count the effects of a trait like Hunter's Eye (ignore the penalty from the second range increment) or a feat like Far Shot (range penalty goes down to -1 per increment) or the enchancement Distance (double the range increment) on the bow on how far you can stand back. Add those together, and you might be talking no penalty to shooting at an opponent from outside Fireball range.

Composite longbow: 110'
Distance: 220'
Hunter's Eye: 440'
Fighter Archer archetype: 115' base at 2nd level, 120' base at 6th level, etc.

So, at 6th level, Fighter Archer with the Hunter's Eye trait, +1 distance, seeking composite longbow has an effective first range increment of 480'. Fireball from a 6th level Wizard has a range of 640', but is the Wizard going to waste one of the few 3rd level spells he has at that level on a single target? Heck, when will you even see an encounter with that large an area defined?


The feat exists because there are games where the GM does sneaky things like kill that pony so the machine gun gets shut down or summons a monster at the feet of the that archer that's so far away or gods forbid places a combat in a tight space or other environment that doesn't allow for you to just sit there and plink away or ride your pony. There are a LOT of games where this happens that is why you need the feat. If this doesn't happen in your games then you're absolutely right you don't need it.


Hell, I'd be HAPPY if they targeted the mount on my mounted archer. I'm rolling lvl + DEX + 3 against your attack roll with mounted combat to avoid the first hit, and the second means you're focusing fire on a charge from my wand. Congrats, I make DC 15 ride check to soft fall and am on my feet, still fighting fine, albeit with less mobility. Good use of actions, champ.

Grand Lodge

proftobe wrote:
The feat exists because there are games where the GM does sneaky things like kill that pony so the machine gun gets shut down or summons a monster at the feet of the that archer that's so far away or gods forbid places a combat in a tight space or other environment that doesn't allow for you to just sit there and plink away or ride your pony. There are a LOT of games where this happens that is why you need the feat. If this doesn't happen in your games then you're absolutely right you don't need it.

Kill the pony? Okay, shoot from long range on your feet.

Monster adjacent? Covered above, but there is also the ability to withdraw, up to double your movement distance, without provoking AoOs.

Tight space? Makes that tank in front of you even better as a wall than the wide, open spaces do.

And the feat tax is too high for what it is worth.
3 mediocre feats so you can move your normal distance with an attack made sometime during your movement?

It doesn't prevent that big monster at your feet from getting an AoO as you move away from him, unlike Spring Attack, so how is that better than just withdrawing for a round?

Nah, I just have never seen enough value in it to be worth paying 3-5 levels worth of feats for it.

As I mentioned, Point-Blank Master doesn't have any "true" feat tax in its prerequisites, since it is either one or two feats your dedicated archer is going to be taking anyhow, or a class feature. And that negates, ayt least in part, that big monster dropped at your feet. Full attack, with Point Blank SHot, no AoOs, and, if it survives (and summoned monsters are usually going to be a bit hit point light for the level), you can still 5' step away from it, or put later arrows in your full attack at a different target. Something you cannot do with Shot on the Run.


proftobe wrote:
The feat exists because there are games where the GM does sneaky things like kill that pony so the machine gun gets shut down or summons a monster at the feet of the that archer that's so far away or gods forbid places a combat in a tight space or other environment that doesn't allow for you to just sit there and plink away or ride your pony. There are a LOT of games where this happens that is why you need the feat. If this doesn't happen in your games then you're absolutely right you don't need it.

But in those cases, Shot on the Run still won't help... all it does is allow you to move your speed and take a shot while doing so, at any point during the move.

I mean, if a monster gets summoned at the feet of an archer, the archer may just as well take his 30' move away and *then* shoot. No need to get Shot on the Run and shoot while he's 5, 10, or 15 feet away.

The only valid use I can see is, as others have pointed out, using cover or popping in & out of some range increment.

I'm wondering if the feat would be any more attractive for a ranged character who's taking levels in Shadowdancer. IIRC, you already need Dodge & Mobility for Shadowdancer. Shot on the Run would just be a feat away. Still useless? Probably, since that kind of build would be pretty feat-starved anyway. But what do you think?


CountMRVHS wrote:


I'm wondering if the feat would be any more attractive for a ranged character who's taking levels in Shadowdancer. IIRC, you already need Dodge & Mobility for Shadowdancer. Shot on the Run would just be a feat away. Still useless? Probably, since that kind of build would be pretty feat-starved anyway. But what do you think?

You're really already answering your own question.

Archery thrives on full attack actions which this denies. So now you're looking at dabblers that would already invest in Dodge & Mobility.

Shot on the run still requires Point Blank Shot. Likely you will want precise shot as well (as others seem to dislike the idea of taking a -4 to hit, and that's before cover).

The investment simply does not match the return. The number of feats without synergy simply climbs here.

-James

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Why Shot on the Run? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions