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The prerqs for some feats, like Extra Hex, are having the Hex Class Feature. When do I quallify for that Class Feature? For example the Gravwalker Archetype replaces the first level Witch hex, could the Gravewalker take Extra Hex feat at first level? Are they considered to have the Hex Class feature, even though they don't get a hex yet?
If they are allowed, could a monk take Extra Ki at first level and start using Ki then?
I have run into this same issue and I requested some sort of errata or FAQ. I will FAQ this one too.
My GM allowed me to consider the class feature to be part of the class, and not be lost until the first hex was available.
I believe that to be RAI but I understand the RAW ruling to the contrary.
Interpreting this as RAW is highly detrimental to the gravewalker witch archetype.
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When you get the class feature, you are considered to have the class feature. Not before you get the class feature. Only when you get it for the first time. This is the intent.
So no, gravewalkers cannot take extra hex at first level. Nor can bladebound magi take Extra Magus Arcana until level 6.
The class and everything that goes with it comes first when it comes to prerequisits.
You have to reach the level with the class first, then take the feat. This can be at the same level for the feats, but not for the class features.
For instance if a rogue talent requires the dodge feat as a prereq, you need to have that feat the level before. On the other hand, you can take a feat the same level you gain a class feature prereq. So in theory extra ki could be taken the same level a monk gains a ki pool though since this is normally at 4 you dont have a feat that level, but if you did fighter 1/monk4 at 5th level you could take extra ki having just gotten a ki pool.
When you get the class feature, you are considered to have the class feature. Not before you get the class feature. Only when you get it for the first time. This is the intent.
So no, gravewalkers cannot take extra hex at first level.
I simply cannot believe the intent of the developers was to deprive gravewalkers of all hexes until level 2 at the earliest. If so I think the gravewalker is essentially a class that cannot be played reasonably at level 1.
They are considered to have it, when they are of sufficient level to have it, or if it's granted by another source.
In your example, if an archtype that is chosen replaces the hex feature, that chracter does not have the hex feature, and a monk does not have the ki pool class feature until he hits 4th level.
Likewise, if an inquisitor takes the anger inquisition, he gains the rage class feature as the Barbarian (albeit 3 levels lower), and may take feats that require having it.
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I can't believe I have to cite that you don't meet a prerequisite until you actually meet it :(
It's the intent, and gravewalker comes up on the short end of the stick due to it.
I can't believe I have to cite that you don't meet a prerequisite until you actually meet it :(
It's the intent, and gravewalker comes up on the short end of the stick due to it.
I can't believe that you can't understand that I think this is an unintentional result and the archetype was not intended to deprive gravewalkers of the ability to use extra hexes until level 2. That means no gravewalker can utilize extra hex feats until level 2, which would deprive gravewalkers of at least two potential hexes compared to other witches.
If that is the intent, I think gravewalker archetype is not worth playing.
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And I don't see why one would think that. It replaces the hex at first level. If they had intended for you to still be able to take hexes at first level through feats or whatever, they would've added language about "still count as possessing the hex class feature" or simply not replace the hex at first level.
It sucks for them (far more so for the bladebound magus!), but I don't see a reason to think it's not the intent other than wishing it so.
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If that is the intent, I think gravewalker archetype is not worth playing.
What?
You lose one hex and replace it with Aura of Desecration AND Bonethrall. If anything, Gravewalker is front-end loaded because you're ditching a 1st and 4th level hex slot for two 1st level class features both of which are as powerful as a minor hex.
Get over it. You're first level.
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Yeah that ruling by SKR seems pretty straight forward, and even specifically lists Archetypes (thanks for that by the way).
I would also disagree that taking the 1st level Hex away from the Gravewalker makes it unplayable, I would think the whole 'aura of evil' would have a greater effect on its playability than losing a hex for 1 level.
Wading into this mess...
Hmm... except that ypou need to have the class feature. This means that if you take, for example, a bladebound kensai, you don't get any arcana until what... 9th level? Makes no sense IMO. I disagree with that interpretation. You don't give up the hex class feature, which you get at 1st level. You get the aura instead of your first level hex. before anyone brings up the white haired witch, that one plainly says you give up hex (as in the class feature)
With Bladebound Kensai, you are taking two archetypes, and getting a ton of benefit, but let me ask you this: Would you allow a straight up Monk to take Extra Ki at first level? If not, what's the difference?
The kensai replaces the 9th level arcana, not the 6th. At 6th level, the bladebound kensai gains the magus arcana class feature because that's when they get it for the first time.
Not having hex as a class feature at level 1 for a gravewalker does not mean a gravewalker "loses one feat" and replaces it with "aura of desecration."
What it means is that a human has two feats that cannot be used as "extra hex" feats. Hexes are what makes witches witches. Hexes are better than feats. Since another ruling is that feats have to be used when they are ready, that means that human gravewalker witches HAVE to pick two feats at first level, while other human witches can pick two additional hexes.
This is a huge problem for gravewalkers imho.
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Yep, it's not a great archetype, for that reason and a few others. (It's so much easier to sunder the doll, but at least it won't be killed by a fireball like a normal familiar would be [except for a natural 1...])
Yep, it's not a great archetype, for that reason and a few others. (It's so much easier to sunder the doll, but at least it won't be killed by a fireball like a normal familiar would be [except for a natural 1...])
Except, of course, if you rule that gravewalkers are witches and can take "extra hex" at first level, then they are fine.
Look at it this way. If you are say the white haired witch you trade out hexes for the strangling stuff. The white haired witch cannot take extra hex ever.
Conversely the grave walker trades out their lvl 1 and 4 hexes, they simply do not have the ability until lvl 6. Hexes are not the be all and end all of the class and the stuff they get for the grave walker seems pretty good.
Here's the EXACT WORDING of the replacement: "This ability replaces the witch's 1st-level hex."
Here's the EXACT WORDING of an ability of the sin eater inquisitor, for comparison: "This ability replaces exploit weakness."
Here's the EXACT WORDING of the "wild shape" section of the aquatic druid: "An aquatic druid gains this ability at 6th level, except that her effective druid level for the ability is equal to her druid level – 2."
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Here's what I get out of all this:An aquatic druid does not have the wild shape ability AT ALL until 6th level. The fact that it then functions at her druid level - 2 is irrelevant to this discussion.
A sin eater never has the exploit weakness ability AT ALL.
A witch gains her hex ability normally, but she doesn't gain a hex automatically from her class level at level 1. Note that it says that it replace her 1st-level hex. It does NOT say that it "replaces hex" (as it would be for a complete removal like the sin eater's), nor does it say that she gains the ability at a different level (as it would be for the aquatic druid).
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TL;DR: I would rule (at least in my games) that witch's gain the hex class feature at level 1 and can take feats to learn new hexes. She just doesn't gain one automatically.
Iziak, this is exactly how my GM ruled on the question, and it is specifically what I asked about the last time this thread came up. I don't believe the wording explicitly states that the class feature of "hex" is lost, just the FIRST LEVEL HEX.
The argument against this is that until you can exercise a class feature, you are not considered to have that class feature. That is, I believe, how Sean K Reynolds interpreted it.
This would not be the first SKR ruling that I find egregiously wrong, fwiw.
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I'm going to throw my weight in on the side that says the witch couldn't take the extra hex feat until third level (because the witch won't be able to use a hex until 2nd level).
Now, having said that, is there anything that requires a player to fill a feat slot the moment it becomes available? Meaning, could a 1st level human witch decide to only take 1 feat at 1st level, and leave the 2nd feat selection for 2nd level?
You must take feats when they become available. It is listed in the character creation section. It never says you "may". SKR also posted on it, more than once IIRC.
You must take feats when they become available. It is listed in the character creation section. It never says you "may". SKR also posted on it, more than once IIRC.
Yep, he did, but in my games you can delay feats if you want. It's a self-punishing situation anyway, forcing someone to take a feat they would prefer not to take is a strange way to make the game fun imho...
He does not have the ability to cast 1st level spells until he gets to level 4.
By your ruling I could apply for a PrC requiring me to be able to cast 2nd level spells because I will actually be able to do so one day if I live long enough.
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The hex gained at first level is the hex class feature. You can't take feats until you meet the prerequisites, and as is the case of the gravewalker at level 1 for Extra Hex, you don't have the hex class feature. Since the gravewalker doesn't have any special text saying that they don't have hexes but can take the extra hex class ability at first level, then they can't take extra hex.
"A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
You gave up your hex class feature at first level. There's nothing implying that the gravewalker gets to ignore that rule.
The evangelist cleric can't take selective channeling at 1st level. They can't take extra channel. Or any other feat that requires channel energy. They don't have the channel energy class ability. They gain it at 3rd level.
The bladebound magi isn't able to take extra arcana until 6th level (well, 7th level really).
You've replaced the hex witches normally get at first level. This is the hex class feature at first level.
Does it suck? Of course it does. But that doesn't change the fact that you do not possess the class feature. There's no reason to think that's not the intent other than just not liking it.
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Not having hex as a class feature at level 1 for a gravewalker does not mean a gravewalker "loses one feat" and replaces it with "aura of desecration."
What it means is that a human has two feats that cannot be used as "extra hex" feats. Hexes are what makes witches witches. Hexes are better than feats. Since another ruling is that feats have to be used when they are ready, that means that human gravewalker witches HAVE to pick two feats at first level, while other human witches can pick two additional hexes.
This is a huge problem for gravewalkers imho.
You're just being silly. There are plenty of feats that are awesome for witches other than Extra Hex.
The hex gained at first level is the hex class feature. You can't take feats until you meet the prerequisites, and as is the case of the gravewalker at level 1 for Extra Hex, you don't have the hex class feature. Since the gravewalker doesn't have any special text saying that they don't have hexes but can take the extra hex class ability at first level, then they can't take extra hex.
"A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."You gave up your hex class feature at first level. There's nothing implying that the gravewalker gets to ignore that rule.
The evangelist cleric can't take selective channeling at 1st level. They can't take extra channel. Or any other feat that requires channel energy. They don't have the channel energy class ability. They gain it at 3rd level.
The bladebound magi isn't able to take extra arcana until 6th level (well, 7th level really).
You've replaced the hex witches normally get at first level. This is the hex class feature at first level.
Does it suck? Of course it does. But that doesn't change the fact that you do not possess the class feature. There's no reason to think that's not the intent other than just not liking it.
I'm just glad my GM isn't a RAW junkie... :)
I'm with Iziak on this one.
Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table: Witch. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
This ability replaces the witch’s 1st-level hex.
The hex class feature grants hexes at 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter. The aura of desecration replaces the hex you gain at first level, but not the entire class feature.
He does not have the ability to cast 1st level spells until he gets to level 4.
By your ruling I could apply for a PrC requiring me to be able to cast 2nd level spells because I will actually be able to do so one day if I live long enough.
Rangers have "-" 2nd level spells per day at 4th level. That means that they have NO 2nd-level spellcasting feature. At the same level, rangers are listed as having "0" 1st level spells per day. This means that they have spellcasting ability, they just don't gain any spells from their class level. It is the same with the witch and the archetype being discussed. A witch normally starts at 1st level with "1" hex. The archetype replace the first hex she gains. 1 - 1 = 0. A witch with the archetype starts at 1st level with "0" hexes. That means she still has the class feature, she just doesn't have an automatic hex. 1 - 1 != "-".
If the archetype said that she gained her hex class feature at 2nd level instead of 1st, that would be a whole nother story (see my discussion of druids and wild shape, above).
They don't get that 0 until level 4.
Before that it is a -0's and -'s are not the same thing.
The general rules says the ability in replaced. It need not be mentioned in the specific text. When it is mentioned, it is only a friendly reminder.
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
Since extra hex requires the hex ability to be there that feat could not be taken.
The general rules says the ability in replaced. It need not be mentioned in the specific text. When it is mentioned, it is only a friendly reminder.
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.Since extra hex requires the hex ability to be there that feat could not be taken.
Extra hex requires the hex ability. Having a hex requires the hex ability. Having the hex ability does not require having a hex.
Extra hex requires the hex ability. Having a hex requires the hex ability. Having the hex ability does not require having a hex.The general rules says the ability in replaced. It need not be mentioned in the specific text. When it is mentioned, it is only a friendly reminder.
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.Since extra hex requires the hex ability to be there that feat could not be taken.
The point still stands, that class features being replaced is a general rule and need not be repeated for every replacement.
I did use a bad example though. :)
If an archetype were to say it replaced Oracle's first revelation that does not mean all revelations are lost.<---I get your point.
I feel the need to point out that if you loose a prerequisite to a feat, you loose use of the feat until you meet the prerequisite again.
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Extra hex requires the hex ability. Having a hex requires the hex ability. Having the hex ability does not require having a hex.The general rules says the ability in replaced. It need not be mentioned in the specific text. When it is mentioned, it is only a friendly reminder.
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.Since extra hex requires the hex ability to be there that feat could not be taken.
Yes it does. If you don't get the Hex at 1st level, you don't get the Hex class feature. They are mutually dependent on each other. You must have one to have the other. Same goes for Magus Arcana. You can't take Extra Arcana at 3rd or 5th level as a Bladebound Magus because you do not have the Magus Arcana class feature, you don't have an Arcana.
Yes it does. If you don't get the Hex at 1st level, you don't get the Hex class feature. They are mutually dependent on each other. You must have one to have the other. Same goes for Magus Arcana. You can't take Extra Arcana at 3rd or 5th level as a Bladebound Magus because you do not have the Magus Arcana class feature, you don't have an Arcana.
Extra hex requires the hex ability. Having a hex requires the hex ability. Having the hex ability does not require having a hex.
This is not clear in RAW. There have been developer comments on these boards to "clarify" that, but I don't think even those have been totally consistent.
I personally don't agree with this interpretation. It's like saying that until you put some liquid in a cup, you can't consider the cup to be a liquid container.
I know there are some developer comments that support the idea that until you get an actual hex, you don't have the hex class feature, but I think that's pretty silly. And until I see something from the developers that say it was fully intentional to rob gravewalkers of the ability to use the "extra hex" feat until second level, I'm simply going to assume it was an oversight.
You can house rule it all you want, but it's already been proven multiple times over by Cheapy that you are simply wrong. I had this same discussion with a player of mine at school, and he's wrong. He's going to rule it how you do in your games, but I'm going how it's supposed to be ruled. Page 72 in the APGYes it does. If you don't get the Hex at 1st level, you don't get the Hex class feature. They are mutually dependent on each other. You must have one to have the other. Same goes for Magus Arcana. You can't take Extra Arcana at 3rd or 5th level as a Bladebound Magus because you do not have the Magus Arcana class feature, you don't have an Arcana.
Extra hex requires the hex ability. Having a hex requires the hex ability. Having the hex ability does not require having a hex.This is not clear in RAW. There have been developer comments on these boards to "clarify" that, but I don't think even those have been totally consistent.
I personally don't agree with this interpretation. It's like saying that until you put some liquid in a cup, you can't consider the cup to be a liquid container.
I know there are some developer comments that support the idea that until you get an actual hex, you don't have the hex class feature, but I think that's pretty silly. And until I see something from the developers that say it was fully intentional to rob gravewalkers of the ability to use the "extra hex" feat until second level, I'm simply going to assume it was an oversight.
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
This has already been posted. You, sir, are wrong. If you don't gain the hex, you don't have the class feature. It says it right there, RAW clear as day. How can you say it's not specifically spelled out when it is?
Edit: Also, how can you say the gravewalker is useless at 1st level without having access to the Extra Hex feat? You still have spells, you have your familiar, also a crossbow probably. Just like every other 1st level caster. It's not a big deal. Take spell focus, imp. spell focus, toughness, hell, dodge even. Skill focus, etc. Plenty of feats you can use at level 1 for a witch without extra hex.
Also, how can you say the gravewalker is useless at 1st level without having access to the Extra Hex feat? You still have spells, you have your familiar, also a crossbow probably. Just like every other 1st level caster. It's not a big deal. Take spell focus, imp. spell focus, toughness, hell, dodge even. Skill focus, etc. Plenty of feats you can use at level 1 for a witch without extra hex.
"Useless" is a bit of hyperbole.
However, "gimped, compared to other witches" is not. Hexes are the witch's primary class feature, it's what makes witches witches. This ruling, in my mind, essentially says that gravewalker "witches" aren't really "witches" until they hit level 2. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Also, I see no reason from a balance perspective to gimp gravewalkers in this sense. Hexes are more powerful than feats. Forcing gravewalkers to choose between a litany of less powerful feats instead of choosing abilities that are central to their class's concept is ridiculous.
I would just hold off on any feats at all until second level, but you will all tell me that RAW says you HAVE to take a feat at the level you qualify for it, so you can't "bank" feats.
I find that ruling also to be silly.
So yeah, I'll house rule it.
But still, I would very much like to hear the developer who created teh gravewalker witch archetype explicitly and specifically state that it was their intention to not allow gravewalkers to take "extra hex" feats until level 3. If so I think that was a grave mistake. If not they should make an adjustment to the archetype description to allow it to work as it was intended.
Also, how can you say the gravewalker is useless at 1st level without having access to the Extra Hex feat? You still have spells, you have your familiar, also a crossbow probably. Just like every other 1st level caster. It's not a big deal. Take spell focus, imp. spell focus, toughness, hell, dodge even. Skill focus, etc. Plenty of feats you can use at level 1 for a witch without extra hex."Useless" is a bit of hyperbole.
However, "gimped, compared to other witches" is not. Hexes are the witch's primary class feature, it's what makes witches witches. This ruling, in my mind, essentially says that gravewalker "witches" aren't really "witches" until they hit level 2. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Also, I see no reason from a balance perspective to gimp gravewalkers in this sense. Hexes are more powerful than feats. Forcing gravewalkers to choose between a litany of less powerful feats instead of choosing abilities that are central to their class's concept is ridiculous.
I would just hold off on any feats at all until second level, but you will all tell me that RAW says you HAVE to take a feat at the level you qualify for it, so you can't "bank" feats.
I find that ruling also to be silly.
So yeah, I'll house rule it.
But still, I would very much like to hear the developer who created teh gravewalker witch archetype explicitly and specifically state that it was their intention to not allow gravewalkers to take "extra hex" feats until level 3. If so I think that was a grave mistake. If not they should make an adjustment to the archetype description to allow it to work as it was intended.
That's the thing, no matter how you think it was intended to work, this is how it does work. You don't get hexes until 2nd level, you can't take extra hex until 3rd. It's part of the archetype rules and has been pointed out multiple times. If you don't like the archetype, either houserule it or don't take it. Simple as that.
This has already been posted. You, sir, are wrong. If you don't gain the hex, you don't have the class feature. It says it right there, RAW clear as day. How can you say it's not specifically spelled out when it is?
There's a problem with the rule you're quoting: It's not applicable here.
The irrelevant rule:
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
Here's why it's irrelevant:
A normal witch has the familiar ability, which grants a familiar. However, spell poppet says "This ability replaces familiar." Thus a gravewalker witch does not count as having the familiar ability.
A normal witch has the hex ability, which grants a hex at 1st level, 2nd level, and every even one thereafter. However, aura of desecration says "This ability replaces the witch’s 1st-level hex." Thus a gravewalker witch does not count as having a 1st level hex. This is not the same thing as not having the hex class feature.
If it replaced the hex class feature, a gravewalker would not get hexes, ever, because getting hexes is part of the hex class feature. This is the same idea as how a ranger or paladin who gives up the "spells" class feature does not get any spells, ever.
The rule you quoted says nothing about gaining the class ability at a later time. If we were to follow your understanding of it, where it replaces the hex class feature altogether, then there's no rule text to provide it back at 2nd level - it's just gone.
Also, how can you say the gravewalker is useless at 1st level without having access to the Extra Hex feat? You still have spells, you have your familiar, also a crossbow probably. Just like every other 1st level caster. It's not a big deal. Take spell focus, imp. spell focus, toughness, hell, dodge even. Skill focus, etc. Plenty of feats you can use at level 1 for a witch without extra hex."Useless" is a bit of hyperbole.
However, "gimped, compared to other witches" is not. Hexes are the witch's primary class feature, it's what makes witches witches. This ruling, in my mind, essentially says that gravewalker "witches" aren't really "witches" until they hit level 2. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Also, I see no reason from a balance perspective to gimp gravewalkers in this sense. Hexes are more powerful than feats. Forcing gravewalkers to choose between a litany of less powerful feats instead of choosing abilities that are central to their class's concept is ridiculous.
I would just hold off on any feats at all until second level, but you will all tell me that RAW says you HAVE to take a feat at the level you qualify for it, so you can't "bank" feats.
I find that ruling also to be silly.
So yeah, I'll house rule it.
But still, I would very much like to hear the developer who created teh gravewalker witch archetype explicitly and specifically state that it was their intention to not allow gravewalkers to take "extra hex" feats until level 3. If so I think that was a grave mistake. If not they should make an adjustment to the archetype description to allow it to work as it was intended.
Original dev intent does not matter.
As an example if I create something(class, monster, feat, spell, etc) as a freelancer for Paizo, and SKR or Jason change it before it gets to the books the book version is the official version.Until the gravewalker gets a rules exception it works the way the books, and the devs say it works.
edit:Even if SKR makes it in house it won't matter if Jason changes it so original dev intent still does not matter.
Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table 2–10. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
The book never says the hex class feature is gained at level 1. It says that at level one she gains one hex of her choice. It then goes on to list the other levels one may gain a hex at. It seems reasonable that being able to use hexes gives you the hex class feature though.
With the gravewalker that first hex is not given to you until later. If the hex ability was still available then the witch would be able to use hexes.
To say I have a class feature but I can't use it is like a rogue flanking someone, and claiming to have sneak attack, yet not being able to do so.
You make a good point, wraith. I think it comes down to the question:
Is each hex considered a separate class feature, or is there a single 'Hex' class feature which grants the ability to have hexes?
In the first case, then you gain the Hex feature repeatedly, each time the chart says you get a Hex. Replacing the hex you would gain replaces that feature altogether. This means that you would not have any instances of the Hex class feature until you got the hex at 2nd level, and would mean that a 20th level witch would have 11 different Hex class features, each granting the ability to use a specific hex.
In the second case, you get a bucket called "Hex" at first level, and you start putting hexes into it every time the chart says you get a hex. Replacing a single hex wouldn't affect the existence of the bucket. This means that you would have the hex class feature at first level unless you took an archetype that said it replaced Hex altogether. In this scenario, the 20th level witch would have 1 Hex class feature which grants them the ability to use 11 different hexes.
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I lean towards the second (in the same way that sneak attack is a single class feature even though it shows on the rogue table 10 times), but I can accept that the first is possibly valid.