So I'm running into an issue with the pantheon I am working on for my homebrew setting and I thought I'd turn to the boards to see if this idea had any traction.
Since PF clerics all get proficiency in their deity's favored weapon and also start with simple weapon proficiency, it's sort of a bum deal for those clerics whose god has a favored weapon that's Simple. Not a huge deal, and most clerics(' players) don't pick their deity based on a favored weapon, but it just seems unfair to me. So, for the most part, I've gone in and given martial or exotic - mostly martial - weapons to my gods.
However, I am working with some existing artwork and some existing setting fluff, and some of the gods are stuck with a simple favored weapon. My solution was to allow clerics whose favored weapon proficiency is a simple weapon to qualify for Weapon Specialization at level 4.
Is this a big deal to offer it? Would you take it as a player? Is there some sort of game balance thing I'm missing?
Thanks.
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It's a flavor thing. Not all clerics have simple weapon proficiency, there are archetypes that change it. For some worshipers, the favored weapon is meaningless, as they may not be focused fighter types. I would find it rather silly to have a patron god of wizards favored weapon to be a greatsword.
Your option would actually make gods with favored simple weapons simply than those who don't.
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From the number cruncher perspective, any god that ended up granting weapon specialization would be better than the alternative.
+2 damage is comparable to going from a 1d6 weapon (3.5 average) to a 1d10 weapon (5.5 average). It's extra good because it's a feat that the class would otherwise not have access to.
If you want gods to offer something for the simple weapon folks, then give those clerics the option of the simple favored weapon or a longsword as a favored weapon.
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Since PF clerics all get proficiency in their deity's favored weapon and also start with simple weapon proficiency, it's sort of a bum deal for those clerics whose god has a favored weapon that's Simple. Not a huge deal, and most clerics(' players) don't pick their deity based on a favored weapon, but it just seems unfair to me. So, for the most part, I've gone in and given martial or exotic - mostly martial - weapons to my gods.
However, I am working with some existing artwork and some existing setting fluff, and some of the gods are stuck with a simple favored weapon. My solution was to allow clerics whose favored weapon proficiency is a simple weapon to qualify for Weapon Specialization at level 4.
As a GM, designing your own gods, you can take advantage of your own control of the situation to make sure that gods who have simple weapons as favored weapons have access to 'better' Domains. (That, of course, is subjective, but most would agree that Travel kicks Chaos to the curb, optimization-wise...)
Gods & Magic follows the trend from 1st edition of different gods giving out 'freebies' like access to a couple of appropriate spells, or the ability to use a spell in an unusual manner, and you can also balance out the simple weapon god by adding a better choice in this area than you would add to a god that has a martial (or exotic!) favored weapon and / or a bunch of hot Domain choices.
Lamashtu, for instance, allows her druids to summon fiendish creatures with summon nature's ally spells, while Erastil allows his clerics to prepare goodberry or animal messenger spells.
Consider stuff like this for clerics of gods with 'dagger' or 'quarterstaff' as their favored weapon, and try to make sure not to give equally cool 'freebies' to clerics of gods with 'longbow' or 'longsword' as their favored weapons.
The Golarion gods don't necessarily follow this trend. Nethys, IMO, has *way* better domain choices than Pharasma, and both have simple weapons. On the other hand, Pharasman clerics add three spells to their spell list as freebies (according to Gods & Magic) while Nethyn clerics *remove* one spell from their spell list. (That doesn't really 'balance things out,' though, since Pharasmans also have a restriction on using some of their Domain spells...)
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Alternately, rather than try to juggle 'best' domains with 'best' favored weapons with 'best' freebie bonus spells, the super-quick option is just to grant a cleric a +1 bonus to attack rolls when using a Simple favored weapon, instead. Perhaps even count it as Weapon Focus, for the purposes of feat prerequisites (or just flat out make it a bonus feat for those who worship a god with a Simple favored weapon, if exception-based design makes your teeth ache).
Well, we are already doing two favored weapons for each god. Most offer a melee and either a ranged or reach weapon as an alternate. However, a few of the gods are stuck with things like dagger, spear or sling (due to existing artwork and very ingrained pre-established fluff). I was trying to make an interesting way for clerics of Skylae to not feel a bit shafted because her favored weapons are spear and sling (both simple weapons).
My reasoning for qualifying for Weapon Spec is that the little boost in damage makes lots of simple weapons comparable with martial or exotic weapons. Some come out with more damage, but the do so without getting special properties, usually.
Also, note that it's "qualify", not "receive as a bonus feat". They'd still have to take Weapon Focus at level 1 or 3, and wait until level 5 (their next available feat, usually) to take Weapon Spec. So, they'd have to be a bit focused on using their weapon to bother with Weapon Focus anyway.
Clerics who end up with Quarterstaff as their FW but really just want to focus on casting and such won't bother with it. But the same could be said for a casty cleric who gets greatsword as their FW. However, a player who really likes the portfolio of Shalokar but also wants to be somewhat martial shouldn't feel gimped a little because he's stuck with dagger (when Brandt's clerics get greatswords).
Your option would actually make gods with favored simple weapons simply than those who don't.
I think this sentence was missing a crucial word to let me know if you like or dislike the idea...
Alternately, rather than try to juggle 'best' domains with 'best' favored weapons with 'best' freebie bonus spells, the super-quick option is just to grant a cleric a +1 bonus to attack rolls when using a Simple favored weapon, instead. Perhaps even count it as Weapon Focus, for the purposes of feat prerequisites (or just flat out make it a bonus feat for those who worship a god with a Simple favored weapon, if exception-based design makes your teeth ache).
Exception based design doesn't bother me, but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel if I don't have to. "You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with this specific weapon" and "you gain Weapon Focus in the favored weapon as a bonus feat" seem pretty comparable to me. Yes, one qualifies you for later feats, but if you are dipping a level of cleric to take a feat everyone can get, I'm not seeing a game balance problem. However, giving Weapon Focus rather than an untyped +1 means that it won't stack with WF, which seems a slightly larger loophole to me than the bonus feat.
Is granting Weapon Focus better than allowing them to qualify for Weapon Spec a better idea?
Well...I have to admit it has annoyed my slightly in the past, but I never really bothered thinking of a fix. That said, for this Skylae...what about making her favored weapon totem spear and sling?
I still say a trait that gives simple favored weapon wielders a small boon is the way to go.
What sort of small boon? I had sort of thought "the option to spend a feat for +2 damage for a not-great weapon you've chosen to focus on anyway" was sort of a small boon.
Mind you, when I play a cleric (especially of the gods in our pantheon with simple FWs), I play them as casters first. So I probably wouldn't take WF (dagger) in the first place, which means the WS (dagger) option isn't going to be used.
However, I wanted something for the cleric of Ianadale and his favored quarterstaff, or Skylae and her spear.
I am also working on other feats, spells and PrCs that key off of the Favored Weapon, so it's going to potentially have some importance for martial clerics to have FW options be worthwhile.
Blackbloodtroll seems to not understand that you want to allow clerics to buy WS. Not have it for free. From his rhetorics it seems he would find this balanced. He suggests +1 attack + masterwork for free. Seems equivalent to having the option of taking WS.
Alternatively, you could give +1 damage trait for free / +1 crit range. That would close the gap between simple and martial weapons. Dagger -> Shortsword/kukri, longspear -> glaive, and so on.
EDIT: Keep in mind that some simple weapons are good in their own way. Many can be thrown and the morningstar has B+P damage simultaneously.
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Lokiron suggests a neat option there, just making the Simple Weapon better in the hands of a cleric whose god counts it as a Favored Weapon.
If you worship the goddess of death, you get +1 damage / +1 crit range with her favored weapon, the dagger.
If you worship the god of magic, you can deliver a touch range spell with a quarterstaff melee attack, or by 'touching' a foe with your quarterstaff (possibly benefiting from any enhancement bonus to attack rolls from a masterwork or magical quarterstaff, to deliver your shocking grasp or whatever).
Given that what's being suggested is to allow Weapon Specialization qualification and not granting it as a bonus feat, it seems fine to me. It's probably not an option most PCs would take, but having it there is a nice idea.
Agreed, the option seems balanced.
But what's prefereble, a free trait or access to a feat? What's the more entertaining option? (I don't pretend to know the answer, btw).|
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I know he is not suggesting a free feat. There is already a feat that allows a cleric of Iomedae to count his cleric levels as fighter levels for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of weapon specialization, with the Goddesses favored weapon. Perhaps you could create a feat like that for simple favored weapon gods.
I know he is not suggesting a free feat. There is already a feat that allows a cleric of Iomedae to count his cleric levels as fighter levels for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of weapon specialization, with the Goddesses favored weapon. Perhaps you could create a feat like that for simple favored weapon gods.
That would be +2 damage for two feats (and access to Greater WS so +4 for 3 feats) bringing them well above martial favored weapon. The only problem is it requires a lot of focus on your weapon because you also need Weapon Focus. So at least 3 feats to gain anything. I don't know how to build clerics, just commenting.
Most gods that give simple weapon proficiency tend to be less martial gods, it seems odd to give them enhanced weapon proficiency compared to the other gods, if you want to compensate I'd say you should look at all the gods and give each of them a boon that is comparable in power.
skill focus in some skill, spell penetration, endurance, lightning reflexes or some spells added to their spell list might be comparable options, anything that might be fitting flavorwise.
Simply giving them an option that a non-simple favored weapon god worshiper would get is still a boon. I would avoid anything that is simply given to them without any cost.
I don't think they need it, but I dislike some choices of faith being inherently inferior, it leads to less variation in characters even decent rp'ers generally look to rp within more or less optimal characters.
Can't say I ever liked the favored weapon aspect of the game, I have a hard time relating it to real world religion, only in some cases I consider it fitting and even then I'd like to have a choice of boons.
Priest of Thor : martial weapon warhammer, favored enemy giants or great fortitude, maybe. I do not think any of this will cause imbalance but it does add flavor.
Thor is an example of a deity in which case favored weapon is fitting, many others it doesn't really come into play thematically and feels forced, just my opinion.
Abadar and Asmodeus both favor simple weapons (light crossbow and mace respectively) and neither is exactly a pacifist.Most gods that give simple weapon proficiency tend to be less martial gods, it seems odd to give them enhanced weapon proficiency compared to the other gods, if you want to compensate I'd say you should look at all the gods and give each of them a boon that is comparable in power.
skill focus in some skill, spell penetration, endurance, lightning reflexes or some spells added to their spell list might be comparable options, anything that might be fitting flavorwise.
I did say it tends to be so, neither do I consider Asmodeus to be particulary martial, if Asmodeus ever comes into melee combat it will probably shame him to ever have it let come to that point, it is more a symbol of office than a weapon imo.
Thor is an example of a deity in which case favored weapon is fitting, many others it doesn't really come into play thematically and feels forced, just my opinion.
The Norse pantheon is one of almost only warrior gods (of varying extent). Maybe the standard pantheon of Pathfinder is too, why favored weapons make sense.
Examples: Frey, the male norse god of fertility and crops, was still a powerful warrior. Thor is not even THE god of war, but rather of weather. Odin, mostly god of death and knowledge, was also a mighty warrior favoring the (thrown) spear.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Weapon proficiency made more sense when it only came with the war domain, though personally, I like the boon, as it encourages a bit of flavor, even though it has flaws in implementation.
How about:
Simple gets weapon focus
Martial Gets weapon proficiency
Unarmed Gets Improved Unarmed Strike
Everyone gets a feat's worth of bonus
In my homebrew world I made every* diety's favorite weapon a martial or exotic weapon so all clerics would be more or less equivilent.
*Except for my Goddess of Death, who makes up for it by having a really good domain portfolio.
And Sun Wukong, the legendary fighter who shakes heaven, gets a quarterstaff. :) Of course, it's obvious to anyone who knows mythology that Sun Wukong's priests, if any, should favor the quarterstaff - but it's just as obvious that they should be quite good with them.
Wouldn't that be closer to a tetsubo? That thing is terribly heavy.
Something else to take into consideration - do the deities with simple favored weapons have superior domain selection?
Here are the gods, their domains and their favored weapons. Only Braeya doesn't have a favored weapon, because she's the goddess of healing and restoration and a major pacifist. Her clerics get lots of domain options and gain Merciful Spell as a bonus feat instead.
The Nine - the major gods, tied closely to their alignments
Athor: Glory, Good, Light, Nobility, Sun
Athor - Longsword, Dart
Marya: Azata, Chaos, Community, Good, Home, Liberation
Marya - Morning Star, Bolas
Skylae: Archon, Good, Knowledge, Law
Skylae - Longspear,Shortspear
Halgar: Inevitable, Knowledge, Law, Memory
Halgar - Warhammer, Heavy Crossbow
Seiba: Animal, Chaos, Feather, Fur, Liberation, Plant, Protean, Travel, Weather
Seiba - Spear, Javelin
Kronarr: Arcane, Divine, Law, Magic, Tactics
Kronarr - Light Mace, Light Crossbow
Phane: Death, Decay, Destruction, Devil, Evil, Law
Phane - Heavy Mace, Hand Crossbow
Gathal: Chaos, Demon, Destruction, Evil, Strength
Gathal - Battleaxe, Spiked Chain
Hylarr: Curse, Daemon, Darkness, Deception, Evil, Madness, Night, Nightmare, Trickery
Hylarr - Whip, Chakram
Elemental - the oldest gods and world shapers
Cheleria: Air, Cloud, Magic, Weather, Wind
Cheleria - Guisarme, Sling
Kylee: Exploration, Magic, Oceans, Travel, Water
Kylee - Glaive, Trident
Ulf: Caves, Earth, Magic, Resolve, Strength
Ulf - Pickaxe, Lucerne Hammer
Vultan: Artifice, Ash, Fire, Magic, Metal, Smoke
Vultan - Maul, Bec-de-Corbin
War - gods of war, very involved in mortal affairs
Akarai: Animal, Ferocity, Insanity, Madness, Strength, War
Akarai - Greataxe, Throwing Axe
Gromm: Rage, Strength, Storms, War, Weather
Gromm - Greataxe, Light Warhammer
Kath: Glory, Heroism, Law, Leadership, Martyr, Nobility, War
Kath - Bastard Sword, Lance
Kern: Animal, Fate, Luck, Plant, War
Kern - Scimitar, Longbow
Mishya: Defense, Knowledge, Law, Protection, Thought, War
Mishya - Longsword, Longbow
Generous - tend towards good nature, but can have a sinister side
Archgate: Artifice, Community, Construct, Rune, Toil, Wards
Archgate - Halberd, Repeating Crossbow
Alyssa: Charm, Community, Family, Love, Luck, Lust
Alyssa - Rapier, Dart
Braeya: Community, Healing, Protection, Purity, Repose, Restoration,
Resurrection
Braeya - None
Bors and Shyla: Growth, Ice, Plant, Seasons, Travel, Weather
Bors and Shyla - Sickle, Sythe, Boomerang, Sling
Dra: Chaos, Community, Freedom, Liberation, Luck
Dra - Greatclub, Blowgun
Ianadale*: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water
Ianadale - Quarterstaff, Longbow
*A cleric of Ianadale can only take one elemental domain.
Vigos: Charm, Knowledge, Language, Trade, Travel
Vigos - Heavy Flail, Shortbow
Exiled - gods exiled from the Dannenbrock, tend towards sinister natures
Avaruum: Charm, Devil, Knowledge, Luck, Trickery
Avaruum - Flail, Pilum
Brandt: Honor, Inevitable, Law, Strength, Tactics
Brandt - Greatsword, Bolas
Chatalize: Ancestors, Darkness, Death, Glory, Loss, Repose, Souls
Chatalize - Bardiche, Net
Shalokar: Chaos, Darkness, Luck, Revolution, Thievery, Trickery
Shalokar - Kukri, Dagger
Vuul: Blood, Death, Destruction, Murder
Vuul - Short Sword, Shuriken
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So... are there any standouts as being too great or too terrible, mechanically? Most of the domain and FW choices were selected based on the existing work from about 10 years of play in this world. Certain gods are very tied to their weapons or domains, but some aren't (especially weapons).
Just bumping an old thread since it seemed to disappear for a bit. Just curious if there were any opinions.
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Something else to take into consideration - do the deities with simple favored weapons have superior domain selection?
It's a crapshoot, and different people will have different opinions as to which Domains are superior.
Nethys, with the quarterstaff, has, IMO, awesome domains.
Pharasma, with the dagger, on the other hand has crap domains.
Urgathoa has what I consider great domains, for the most part, and yet has the martial scythe, a popular weapon for it's rare x4 crits.
Erastil, with the longbow, has the best favored weapon, to me, and has average domains (animal can rock, and plant, with the growth sub-domain, as well, but law and good, like all of the alignment domains, are deadly dull, which is something all LG, CG, LE and CE gods have to put up with, 40% of their domains taken up by suck).
Just bumping an old thread since it seemed to disappear for a bit. Just curious if there were any opinions.
I basically agree with Brambleman; if you care, you can give out Weapon Focus or Improved Unarmed Strike. Personally, I don't really care.
I have a couple of points about the discussion so far:
1) Any solution to this problem should scale to level.
For example, handing the PC at 1st level a MW weapon is an incredible boon. And at 12th level, it's a toothpick.
Weapon Specialization is a large bonus at 4th level, but clerics at higher levels usually have much more to do with their spells and much less use for their weapons. Furthermore, the flat +2 bonus will often be heavily overshadowed by all the other benefits of a caster's feats at that higher level. This would lead to the solution failing to scale.
2) Not all solutions need to be purely mechanical.
Set mentioned Urgathoa having great domains and a nice favored weapon. These are both true. However...if you're a cleric of Urgathoa, there's no reason at all that your affiliation can't cause you all kinds of problems as a PC. Just what, exactly, does a player expect his PC to undergo if he decides to join a cult of cannibalistic necromantic disease-mongers?
Yeah...all kinds of disincentives to playing that character come to mind, even if they are mechanically superior.
Good gods can have similar non-mechanical downsides, though it's trickier and can seem really forced. Ex: Erastil's faith's sexist attitudes, heavy demands from the churches of Iomedae, etc.
Clerics are characters who come with pre-packaged obligations to their faith, their god, and those they minister, and that can be a very big factor in the game.
3) I don't pretend I have a perfect solution.
I've noticed this before, but I tend to find this a non-factor as in my games.
4) Proposed partial solution
Feats are too precious. What if you allow all PC's two traits, and clerics with a martial favored weapon only get 1 trait?
I'm with LazarX on this one.