What happens if you take bloodline spells or feats early?

[Douglas Muir 406]

What it says. A number of the bloodline spells are ones that you might want to take at 1st or 2nd level. What happens if you do? Do you lose the bonus spell (which would suck and be stupid), or do you get to pick any spell you like (which would be pretty overpowered)?

Feats, same question. I note in passing that some of the bonus feats include two- and even three-feat chains (looking at you, rakshasa bloodline). That means that, unless you start early, you can't gain that second feat in the chain until 13th or 19th level. That doesn't seem right. But again, losing the bonus seems punitive, while allowing the character to turn it into a wild card feat seems awfully gameable.

Is there a ruling on this?

Doug M.

[concerro]

RAW you lost the spell. Some GM's are nice enough to allows you to choose a replacement spell.

As for feat you lose those also. Most GM's would not allow you to replace them though since they are not automatically chosen for you like spells are.

PS:You do not get to bypass the prerequisites for the spells from bloodlines. I only mention that because you said you would have to wait until 13th or 19th level.

[LazarX]

I tell people straight off that if you deliberately take a feat early that would be a bonus feat later, you pay for that by losing the bonus. I then give them one chance to reconsider. After that it's a done deal.

Same rule goes for spells.

[Skjald]

At 4th level and every even numbered level after that the sorcerer can exchange 1 of his previously chosen spells, so if you have a spell twice, once by choice and once from bonus spell, you could use this ability to exchange the chosen spell.

[Midnight_Angel]

Skjald wrote:

At 4th level and every even numbered level after that the sorcerer can exchange 1 of his previously chosen spells, so if you have a spell twice, once by choice and once from bonus spell, you could use this ability to exchange the chosen spell.

Actually, if your GM decides to screw you over by reading the rules as verbatim as possible, you won't.

Let's assume Elemental Bloodline, and break down the progress level by level.

At Level 1, you pick Burning Hands, and Mage Armor, plus a couple of cantrips
At Level 2, you pick your next cantrip
At Level 3, you get another Level 1 spell. Let' assume Grease. Plus, you get your Bloodline spell (in this case, Burning Hands (which you already have))

This leaves you with three spells: Burning Hands, Grease and Mage Armor. The fact that you got BH twice is irrelevant, you just 'have' it once. Your list of spells known doesn't read "Burning Hands, Burning Hands, Grease Mage Armor". Congrats, you're a spell short.

Now, in Level 4, you can swap out any first level spell you want... with the exception of Burning Hands (for this is your Bloodline Spell). The fact you had it as a pick as well is just... irrelevant. Yes, you're still a spell short, and nothing you can do will change that. Too bad, so sad. Next time, play a wizard.

Dick move on side of the GM? You bet. RAW legal? Yup.

[wraithstrike]

I don't call that a dick move. The player knew ahead of time what the limitations were and chose to ignore them. It is no different than a class giving you a specific bonus feat at a certain level, and you picking it up ahead of time.

[Rathendar]

On the flip side, making a character "i want to be a fire sorcerer who burns stuff!"

Taking burning hands at level 1 seems to be a no brainer. As a DM i would be ok with the player picking another spell after the bonus spell kicked in. I'm a softie in that way i guess.

[Nemitri]

Rathendar wrote:

On the flip side, making a character "i want to be a fire sorcerer who burns stuff!"

Taking burning hands at level 1 seems to be a no brainer. As a DM i would be ok with the player picking another spell after the bonus spell kicked in. I'm a softie in that way i guess.

you are not a softie, you are a rational person who sees that some rules are just plain stupid and should be ignored.

[HaraldKlak]

wraithstrike wrote:

I don't call that a dick move. The player knew ahead of time what the limitations were and chose to ignore them. It is no different than a class giving you a specific bonus feat at a certain level, and you picking it up ahead of time.

Well this requires the GM to lay his rulings down beforehand. I cannot be compared to other class feats (apart from fighter bonus feats), since the rules specifically allow you to change previously chosen spells.

While it could be ruled that a sorcerer cannot know a spell twice, it is not anything that can be derived from the rules. By the rules the sorcerer would already have one less spell known at the level he gain the bonus spell, so the versatility comes with a drawback.

[Eideann]

I would argue that you have the spell twice so you can swap out the non-free one. Much clearer if you are an Elemental Sorcerer not of fire. You have Burning Hands (fire) and Burning Hands (cold). Burning Hands (cold) can't be swapped, Burning Hands (fire) can.

[wraithstrike]

Eideann wrote:

I would argue that you have the spell twice so you can swap out the non-free one. Much clearer if you are an Elemental Sorcerer

not of fire. You have Burning Hands (fire) and Burning Hands (cold). Burning Hands (cold) can't be swapped, Burning Hands (fire) can.

That is how I see it also. Two different versions of the same spell.

[Alitan]

I'd have zero problem with a Sorcerer trading out their early choice of bonus spell... otoh, there are enough bonus feats in any bloodline that, if they've chosen a feat on that list ahead of possibly choosing it, they're not getting to swap it out and choose another feat in addition to their bonus feat. My take, YMMV.