Hello all,
I would like to play through the pathfinder modules, pathfinder adventure paths, and so on, unfortunately, we are two people. We really, really love gaming, and have all sorts of fun with this, but I am starting to have trouble balancing combat for a single PC, sometimes we switch, and my partner has even more grief.
While I understand that PF is designed for a party of four, so a party of one is going to necessarily screw up the game, I feel like this is something that can be adapted.
Basically, I am looking for some methods of making specific adjustments to the core/apg classes so that they are 'soloable' in a predictable way (a class X with Y mods can generally be expected to handle encounters of CR Z), so we can explore the storylines of the various PF adventures.
Solutions I am not really interested in are 'just have NPCs!', 'just make extra characters and play them at the same time!', 'go play a different game', and 'carefully re-balance all the encounters before your player hits them'.
I've toyed with ideas like 'all saving throws advance at full', 'BAB advances at maximum', 'double your character's skillpoints', 'maximize hit die or replace with larger dice', 'set all stats to 18', gestalt (character sheets can get complicated, and the easy to find tools do not support it easily), 'cure potions/wands can be used as a free action like LoH', 'PC acts twice in initiative stack', 'PC is two levels above recommended for the module (this is potentially game-damaging because the PC has higher level spells than assumed by the campaign design)', and some others, but I'm looking for predictably fixing balance. I feel that the 'single saving throw = TPK' issue is actually easier to resolve then the general combat issues.
I would actually buy a supplement that covered this specific set of problems, and I imagine other people would too. Ideally, such a supplement would provide some 'super-classes' of the traditional archetypes (big stupid fighter, thief, magic-user) The specific classes I would like to bother with are Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin, Witch, and Wizard; neither of us really want to play anything else, but I hope this starts off an interesting discussion.
If it helps, I want to run a solo character through Curse of the Crimson Throne and hopefully "Slumbering Tsar Saga". I should also add that I love traps, and would like a good way of adding some trap handling skills to other classes without breaking the class; I want to pull out Grimtooths' Dungeon of Doom at some point, but I would guidance for giving a non-rogue a fighting chance.
EDIT: I tried the search function and did not find a good discussion. We have a lot of fun with the solo adventures from Expeditious Retreat Press; some of them are very well done (Gambler's Quest is a favorite): http://www.xrpshop.citymax.com/catalog/item/3906590/7369085.htm.
I can't see how it would work in campaigns not designed for single players. The various 'Challenge' modules in 2nd ed were purpose built for this and apparently quite good.
I'm thinking there have been a fair number of threads on this topic so far, perhaps a 3PP might look at exploring this niche on their off-day?
Have you looked into running a full party (say a barbarian, rogue, witch and paladin) where two of the characters are treated as PCs, where the active player's character has the spotlight for the session.
Shifty wrote: I can't see how it would work in campaigns not designed for single players. The various 'Challenge' modules in 2nd ed were purpose built for this and apparently quite good.
I'm thinking there have been a fair number of threads on this topic so far, perhaps a 3PP might look at exploring this niche on their off-day?
There was this thing in 3.5 unearthed arcana called gestalt classes. Basically you take two classes at once. You take the best hit die and best of each save from the class and the best skill points. Then you get all the class abilities. My wife and I play this way with two characters all the time, including cures of the crimson throne. Its a blast. The only thing you need to make sure it that you treat xp as if it were a 4 person party and maybe adjust loot down a bit
Ahhh Lewas, THAT is what the whole Gestalt thing was about?
Ok never did the 3rd ed stuff :)
Sounds pretty intriguing and could be a blast, very 'superhero' style.
I'm just wondering if there's an angle for single player RAW characters, I guess some lend themselves to generic settings better - but I ca EASILY see a series for 'single player' modules... in fact I can think of a few good ones now. Maybe I need to start writing.
Lewas5372 wrote: Shifty wrote: I can't see how it would work in campaigns not designed for single players. The various 'Challenge' modules in 2nd ed were purpose built for this and apparently quite good.
I'm thinking there have been a fair number of threads on this topic so far, perhaps a 3PP might look at exploring this niche on their off-day?
There was this thing in 3.5 unearthed arcana called gestalt classes. Basically you take two classes at once. You take the best hit die and best of each save from the class and the best skill points. Then you get all the class abilities. My wife and I play this way with two characters all the time, including cures of the crimson throne. Its a blast. The only thing you need to make sure it that you treat xp as if it were a 4 person party and maybe adjust loot down a bit I looked at gestalt, I'd love to do it if it actually works, do you use any particular tools to manage the character sheets, or just pen and paper? Do you run each character separately, or does the DM run one with the player and just kind of hang out of the spotlight, or does the player solo with you rotating DMing? What classes do you use? Is this setup basically easily substituted for a same level party?
I think we would have fun roleplaying a Roguebarian and a palawitch.
edit: typos
We just use pen and paper. Usually I'm the dm and I have a character that mostly stays out of the limelight that way the other player can make most of the decisions. We play all types of classes but the best ones are ones you don't have to spread your points to thin like paladin/summoner or fighter/barbarian. As for setup I do give max-2 hit points to make the characters a little more survivable. We also use higher stat generation in order to help with the fact you need a lot of stats. And yes you can just use the xp system in the core for 4 players instead of 2 and it works out pretty well. We played through Crimson thrown all the way with a Paladin/Fighter and a Wizard/rogue
Lewas5372 wrote: We just use pen and paper. Usually I'm the dm and I have a character that mostly stays out of the limelight that way the other player can make most of the decisions. We play all types of classes but the best ones are ones you don't have to spread your points to thin like paladin/summoner or fighter/barbarian. As for setup I do give max-2 hit points to make the characters a little more survivable. We also use higher stat generation in order to help with the fact you need a lot of stats. And yes you can just use the xp system in the core for 4 players instead of 2 and it works out pretty well. We played through Crimson thrown all the way with a Paladin/Fighter and a Wizard/rogue Alright, this sounds awesome, now that I know it worked for someone else I'll just dive right into it. I'm going to see how 5D6 drop two lowest, set anything under 12 to 12 base for stat generation; max hp-2 per level, three traits, and xp progression with encounter xp divided by four instead of 2. Making sure that there is some primary stat overlap is a good idea. For typical feat progression, do you get double the feats per normal leveling (two when you would usually get one), or just the better progression and all the bonus feats for both classes? I am inclined to wonder about a rogue/wiz being a little bit feat starved if you opt for normal feat progression while levelling.
Gestalt is not the best option in my opinion. It does make for cool and powerful characters, but it isn't more HD just more options. Really, a single PC campaigns biggest issues will boil down to action economy and hp. Fights are designed to do damage to around 4 PCs. Anyway, I do think there are a few adjustments that you can make that could work around this whole problem. Unfortunately, you took all the good, simple options and tossed them out the window in the OP, but I would like to bring them back up with some adjustments.
1) Being Higher Level - I like the idea of advancing the character a few levels above the normal, but you are right in bringing up spell availability. One option could be to let him play a monster as a PC that has a few HD like an Azer. It would make him more resilient while still keeping him in the class level range that the modules expect. It also doesn't put him too far above the campaign that encounters will be too simple.
2) Just use NPCs - I know you don't think this isn't a good solution, but let us be honest. At some point, one character just can't do it. The PC is going to need help of some kind. The problem I think is with the idea that you will just make three other NPCs to be the "rest of the party" making a kind of bot shell. That does sound boring, but I think there are more innovative ways to increase the count of a player's allies that still makes the game more player centric.
First, I would give or boost the class companion abilities. For example, I would give the barbarian and the rogue a druid like animal companion from level one that is loyal to the PC. Over time, it may be ideal to give the companion the advanced template or similar boosts to keep it relevant at higher levels. The wizard and witch could get improved familiar at first level for free so the familiar takes the form of a useful companion and perhaps given them access to a limited number of class levels over time so they can fill missing party roles. For the Paladin, I would give him an ability similar to the anti-paladin's fiendish boon ability but from level one to get a little celestial help from the get go. This is actually an ability that might not be supplemented because it is quite beneficial in and of itself. In fact, you might want to make an item called a summoner's ring for a wizard or witch character that can be used to make a summon spell indefinite at the cost of locking out the casters spell slot used for it. It would be a small ring that could be placed on a summoned creature that causes the duration and range of the spell to be infinite. While on the creature it could change form as appropriate such as a collar, belt, bracer, or halo. These things provide an extra body, but still function as an extension of the player character.
I would also suggest you making a small pool of mercenaries as NPCs that can be "hired" on to help your main player. Have them always be around and fleshed out but keep them on level with the player. Then, if your player thinks he might be in over his head or needs a specific amount of expertise then it is readily available. It doesn't force a fake NPC party on the player, but lets you both experiment a little with NPC help when it is crucial to success.
3) Traps - I think any player can find creative ways to deal with traps in terms of avoiding or disabling them. So, I don't think many changes are needed in this department. The biggest problem comes from those traps designed to imperil a single character but allow the rest of the party to help (i.e. the pit trap). In this situation, I think those solutions to having additional help above resolve those issues. Still, you might allow some kind of passive trap detection if it really frightens you.
4) Encounter rebalancing - I would suggest dealing with this only in a limited fashion. I might consider reducing most combat encounters with multiple opponents by one or larger mobs by 25%. This is less a CR issue then a body count issue. Encounters are designed with four players in mind, so some times creatures are placed just so the monsters aren't outnumbered. This obviously won't be a problem for you.
Ultimately, I don't think there is one simple elegant solution. You need to make some big invested choices to make this plausible. It's a big task, and it will take work. I tried to make a mix of solutions that will require as much PC work as DM work so neither of you will be shouldering the burden alone.
You need to make adventures suitable for one character. Straight up fights are probably not going to work. But there is plenty of scope for drama with a single character, and many stories to give inspiration!
Making this up as I go along:
Sneaking about the city robbing from the rich and corrupt aristocracy you uncover a cult that threatens the entire city. As you are a wanted criminal you cannot go to the authorities, but still not willing to see the city of your birth destroyed you embark on a mission to assassinate the clan leader and steal the book of magic which contains the spell which must be cast in 2 weeks time when the stars are correctly aligned.
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As a Rogue you can avoid most big groups and play a cat and mouse game getting into the cults lair. You fight the cult leader when he is alone, having sealed the door, or created a diversion, or maybe you just slip some potent poison into his wine. You then slip way with the book and save the day.
If this was set up in a written AP there would be talking to the authorities to try and solve the problem, breaking into the mansion to try and discover the location of the cult, encounters with guards in the cult temple, big fights with demons summoned, and a final showdown with the BBEG. All balanced to give different types of character a chance to shine and stretch the resources of 4 people.
I would says its very difficult to alter and existing AP and still make it make sense, let alone be balanced.
If you tone down the encounters then the fight with the guards would be just a 1 on 1 - not very exciting.
If you boost the level of the single character it becomes trivial - but one failed Will save really is game over.
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Maybe have a look at some of the 1on1 adventures such as these:
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/expeditiousRetreatPress/1on1Adventures
I've never done solo campaigning, but I play almost exclusively with a party of 2, and we do the APs...well, perfectly fine really. But I'm pretty good at optimization, too - not the best, mind you, but pretty good.
The easiest thing I can think of is try to play power classes, optimize the hell out of them, and maybe give them an extra level or two. Keep in mind, if you're playing the published adventures, that there's 4 people worth of treasure there...and one is going to get all of it. You're gonna have 4x WBL - that will correct for the lack of extra people quite a bit on its own. If you're playing a summoner, or a druid, or something like that with a nasty lil friend, you can load that thing down with more gear than a PC of your level and still be way, way ahead of the curve.
I guess throw the person Leadership and allow tehm a shieldman/sidekick.
A Robin to their Batman?
First, thank you all for the comments, these are great, and even if I don't use everything you guys are suggesting, this thread can hopefully be valuable to the next person with my issue searching the forum.
pobbes wrote: stuff HP and action economy really are the problems, bumping the HP and at least making it a duo is probably a good idea. A typical party of four with a wiz, pal, rogue, and cleric has a d6, d8, d8, and d10 as HD, so on average, 16 hp per HD plus constitution mods. Two characters with d10-2 hp/level matches this, probably explaining part of why the gestalt/powerful duo solution helps, one character with 16 hp/level just sounds overpowered though. Summons are a good way of fixing the 'action economy' issue, without messing with the roleplay, or seriously overpowering a character, I like the 'longer durations' idea.
The 'bot shell' was my main concern with the NPC solution. I do not typically like adding a GMPC--on further reflection, I sometimes catch myself trying to use the GMPC to lead the players around, or start to steal the spotlight, and I feel like in a smaller game, the issue would be amplified, but that's something I can work on.
Potentially giving leadership as a free feat and allowing the cohort to be the same level as the PC, or level -1 could be a solution, but you still end up with either a player running two characters, or a GMPC. Offering adventure, or even encounter specific hirelings (adding a 'go get a team together' aspect to the roleplay) could be good, I really like the idea of amplifying the summon duration to make them more of a factor, I had not thought of that.
Upon reflection, dropping the save DCs on trap detection by a few points is probably the way to go to make up for the rogue's bonus to perception for trapfinding (or just giving that bonus to the PC); that and a GM fiat allowing any class to play with magic traps should be enough. I like traps, but I also like the idea of the player actually having a chance to detect them.
Lightbulb wrote: stuff Everyone should try soloing as a rogue at some point, it's a lot of fun; and thank you for the good adventure hooks. I really want to be able to run published modules and paths though.
DrowVampyre wrote: stuff Thank you for the comment about WBL, given that your duo does fine, I'm no longer quite as concerned, Lewas suggested possibly toning down the loot, so it looks like by implementing some of these solutions, you end up pushing the power curve pretty heavily.
Shifty wrote: stuff Thank you for the advice, see my comment to pobbes!
I don't think the following is a good solution for my player, but I would certainly have fun with it as a PC: The PC is chieftain of the zergbone tribe, and never approaches challenges alone, but instead, enters every adventure with a large follower group (based on Leadership score) of CR 1/3 orcs, each complete with a whopping SIX hp and a spear; if any orcs should be lost in battle, the number is replenished for the next adventure by the zergbone tribe's astonishing birthrate (replace orcs with skeletons or your choice of mook).
I'm running a solo game with this houserules:
- gestalt
- max. HP on each HD
- homebrewed classes (basically buffed up standard classes)
That's all and it works fine. The player destroys standard encounters, I have to optimize or throw higher CRed enemies at him. I helped him make a great PC and he's having tons of fun playing a half-dragon/half-fiend/war troll Meleer.
ImperatorK wrote: I'm running a solo game with this houserules:
- gestalt
- max. HP on each HD
- homebrewed classes (basically buffed up standard classes)
That's all and it works fine. The player destroys standard encounters, I have to optimize or throw higher CRed enemies at him. I helped him make a great PC and he's having tons of fun playing a half-dragon/half-fiend/war troll Meleer.
What levels are you playing this character through? I think that this probably represents overshooting the mark I am aiming at, but by the sound of it, you're having a lot of fun!
This player is new to gaming in general, so I would rather stick to some simple numbers tweaks, without creating completely unrealistic expectations about character power, or straying too far from the core books. For gestalts, I read a warning that full BAB rogue variants can end up causing trouble in a game by sneak attack one-shotting some properly leveled targets--I can imagine a palarogue with a falchion or ranseur just ripping stuff to pieces.
I'm not sure how I'm going to handle this just yet, but this thread has a lot of good ideas.
We started at 17th level and now he's 20th level and I'm working on converting a 20th level adventure module to PF and my houserules.
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