So I have an idea for a half-orc barbarian/efreet BL tattooed sorcerer.
Essentially the tribe of orcs he comes from reveres and interbred with efreets long ago, and where the bloodline was formerly strong, in the centuries since it has been diluted. This char is prophesied to be the resurgence of the bloodline and the future chief of the tribe, and thus is the subject of contempt from full-blood orcish rivals who don't want to see a half-orc rise to a position of power, and anyway have been pretending at bloodline power through deception and parlor tricks. They chased him out and he is biding his time, gaining strength until he can take his birthright. Still working out the kinks in the story, but I like the sort of fire inside/rage and the potential combined power.
However, I'm running into issues speccing him out.
One issue is that he's likely got to have 5 barb levels to begin with (but this might be finagled lower if need be), before the tattooed sorcerer. The other issue is that dragon disciple (which I believe is most people's fix for barb/sorc) makes no sense with the character. Can anyone point me in a good direction?
There is no good way to get barbarian powers and sorcerer powers.
If you only want the early rage powers and early sorc powers you could go into something like eldritch knight. But personally, I would not like that.
I think you will be happier just staying with the 2 multiclass and deciding which you want to concentrate on. A barb 6 / sorc 14 is pretty good (though many will say not optimal).
You could probably be more optimal with just barbarian then going for the eldritch heritage line of feats. That will give you some of the same flavor without forcing you to multiclass. PF just doesn't do gish really well.
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote: You could probably be more optimal with just barbarian then going for the eldritch heritage line of feats. That will give you some of the same flavor without forcing you to multiclass. This. Maybe grab a level or two of Oracle, that's actually a worthwhile dip for Barbarian and can make your Charisma useful to you.
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote: PF just doesn't do gish really well. Well, there's the Magus. Or Dawnflower Dervish Bard. But yeah, multiclassing is bad news.
Deadmanwalking wrote: ...
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote: PF just doesn't do gish really well. Well, there's the Magus. Or Dawnflower Dervish Bard. But yeah, multiclassing is bad news.
Yeah, I know what you mean. The magus is really pretty good.
Some of use a slightly different definition of gish. To me a gish is combining a primary arcane spell caster class and primary martial class not playing a class that already has both. Some people also mean any kind of caster (or psionics if you use them). Then, alot of classes are already gish. Like cleric, druid, bard, etc...
Thanks so much for your input, and so quickly!
I was wondering why barb 6/sorc 14? What specifically about those levels?
Nothing in particular until you start looking a detailed build.
If I were building a melee/caster I would go no more that 1/3 levels in whichever i was considering my secondary class. If you try to keep them even, it tends to not work out very well.
Level 6 means all 3 saves go up 1 (I think saves are much more important than some people). Plus the Barb gets his second rage power. Sorc is up to 7th level spells and has 3 of his bloodline powers.
Argument can easily be made for 4/16 to get the 4th bloodline power and level of spells.
Do you want him to be a melee guy that has some casting primarily to buff himself? Then you probably want Barb/Sorc at 14/6 or maybe 16/4.
Do you want him to be a pretty good caster that can still get physical when that seems like a better option? Then more toward 6/14 or 4/16.
Or you can look at the particular abilities. Is there a particular rage power you want that needs requires you to get to 12th level to select? or is there a particular sorcerer bloodline power or spell you are enamored with? Then those will tend to define some of the basics of your build.
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I guess what I am recommending is that you make a few more decisions about what you want before we can give you very detailed advice. Do you want the rage power that lets you throw guys around as your attack? Do you want to be primarily a melee brute? You will get alot more specific advice if you come back with something like, "I want to be mostly a buffing caster, but I have to have the terrifying howl rage power and I will use a halberd in melee combat."
Of course the advice might be, don't do that. =)
Just reskin the Oracle of Flame to be the sorcerous bloodline. You will still be blasting and also anyone can get the feat varisian tattoo. Voila tattooed sorcerer that mixes well with Barbarian. You might even want to pursue the Rage prophet PRC.
@Kydeem
The way it will likely work best in this game is as a melee guy who can buff himself. He's wanting to return to claim his mantle as chieftain, and orcs may fear a sorcerer, but they'll more likely revere a casting warrior. So I'd think at least 2nd level spells for the sorcerer, that way he can get bull's strength and enlarge person.
He'll be using a falchion, mostly because that's what efreets use. Lord knows 2d4 isn't much damage for a two-handed weapon, but the crit range is nice and it's 2d6 if he enlarges.
I would like for him to have some fiery flavor to him as well, though. The fire damage he would be able to deal as a low level sorcerer just isn't going to hold up for long. I was looking at the elemental rage powers, though, and they might suffice.
@Gignere
How do you mean "reskin"? I'm really not at all practiced in houseruling, so what would that involve?
dokhaan wrote: @Kydeem
The way it will likely work best in this game is as a melee guy who can buff himself. He's wanting to return to claim his mantle as chieftain, and orcs may fear a sorcerer, but they'll more likely revere a casting warrior. So I'd think at least 2nd level spells for the sorcerer, that way he can get bull's strength and enlarge person.
He'll be using a falchion, mostly because that's what efreets use. Lord knows 2d4 isn't much damage for a two-handed weapon, but the crit range is nice and it's 2d6 if he enlarges.
I would like for him to have some fiery flavor to him as well, though. The fire damage he would be able to deal as a low level sorcerer just isn't going to hold up for long. I was looking at the elemental rage powers, though, and they might suffice.
@Gignere
How do you mean "reskin"? I'm really not at all practiced in houseruling, so what would that involve?
Reskin just means keep all the rules of the Oracle but just describe it differently. Like instead of the power of fire coming from the gods, it comes from your bloodline.
Gignere wrote: dokhaan wrote: @Kydeem
The way it will likely work best in this game is as a melee guy who can buff himself. He's wanting to return to claim his mantle as chieftain, and orcs may fear a sorcerer, but they'll more likely revere a casting warrior. So I'd think at least 2nd level spells for the sorcerer, that way he can get bull's strength and enlarge person.
He'll be using a falchion, mostly because that's what efreets use. Lord knows 2d4 isn't much damage for a two-handed weapon, but the crit range is nice and it's 2d6 if he enlarges.
I would like for him to have some fiery flavor to him as well, though. The fire damage he would be able to deal as a low level sorcerer just isn't going to hold up for long. I was looking at the elemental rage powers, though, and they might suffice.
@Gignere
How do you mean "reskin"? I'm really not at all practiced in houseruling, so what would that involve?
Reskin just means keep all the rules of the Oracle but just describe it differently. Like instead of the power of fire coming from the gods, it comes from your bloodline. Gotcha. That's what I figured, though I guess it would still be divine magic instead of arcane.
Ok, then I would only plan on 4 or 6 levels of sorc.
You could also do the elemental rage powers along with the eldritch heritage feats. If you also put some points in UMD, you could use wands for those low level buffs pretty easily and cheaply.
dokhaan wrote: Gignere wrote: dokhaan wrote: @Kydeem
The way it will likely work best in this game is as a melee guy who can buff himself. He's wanting to return to claim his mantle as chieftain, and orcs may fear a sorcerer, but they'll more likely revere a casting warrior. So I'd think at least 2nd level spells for the sorcerer, that way he can get bull's strength and enlarge person.
He'll be using a falchion, mostly because that's what efreets use. Lord knows 2d4 isn't much damage for a two-handed weapon, but the crit range is nice and it's 2d6 if he enlarges.
I would like for him to have some fiery flavor to him as well, though. The fire damage he would be able to deal as a low level sorcerer just isn't going to hold up for long. I was looking at the elemental rage powers, though, and they might suffice.
@Gignere
How do you mean "reskin"? I'm really not at all practiced in houseruling, so what would that involve?
Reskin just means keep all the rules of the Oracle but just describe it differently. Like instead of the power of fire coming from the gods, it comes from your bloodline. Gotcha. That's what I figured, though I guess it would still be divine magic instead of arcane. The distinction is pretty artificial to begin with. I mean would your tribe of Orcs hate you any less if they knew that your fireball came from a divine source instead of an arcane source?
Thanks for all your help guys, you helped me really hone in on what I was wanting out of the character. Here's what I'm thinking.
I'm thinking I'll go barb 8/sorc 12. That gets me rage powers: Moment of Clarity (1 round per rage that i can think straight enough to cast), Auspicious Mark (a tattoo that is +1d6 i can add to a d20 roll once per rage after the d20 is rolled), Lesser Elemental Rage (+1d6 energy (fire) damage to a melee attack once per rage), and Elemental Rage (+1d6 energy (fire) damage to all melee attacks while enraged). That last one requires 8th level. Also I'll have improved uncanny dodge and DR 1/-. I'll be elemental kin so any time I take my level in energy damage from an attack I'll get an extra rage round.
Then, 12th level sorc will get me up to 6th level spells, and most of the bloodline abilities I care about (including the ability to cast one evocation spell at +2 clvl as a spell like ability 1/day; see 9th level tattooed sorcerer ability). I think, despite the fact that I have no levels in it at my start of the game, I will go ahead and make sorcerer my favored class and use the alternate for half-orcs that adds 1/2 point per level to fire damage spells.
I'll end up with BAB +14/+9/+4 by 20th level, unaltered. So... just under what a rogue or cleric would have, but with the ability to rage and lots of at-will spells.
Now I just need to figure out my feats. These are the ones I'm thinking so far. WF: Falchion, Power Attack, Extra Rage, Spell Focus, Expanded Arcana, Vital Strike, Devastating Strike, Arcane Armor Training. Maybe Combat Reflexes or Expanded Arcana a couple more times. What do you think? Any tweaks you can think of?
Not bad as a whole.
If I felt like I had to go to barb 8, I'd make that primary and go to barb 14. Close to even levels is very tough. But not impossible, so if you really want to, give it a go. Might depend on how tough your GM is or how optimized the rest of the group is (it is no fun being way behind everyone else).
Unless you've got a reach weapon or are going to use enlarge person a lot I would probably not take combat reflexes. If you do take it, make sure your dex is high enough to be worth it.
I'm not sure you are enough of a caster for expanded arcana to be worth it. Only take if there is a another specific spell that you think you will use alot. Don't take it to just "get a more well rounded spell selection." It is impossible to take enough times to make you a utility wizard.
Does you GM tend to throw enough really tough fights at you in one day to need the extra rage? If the fight is just some mooks or guards you probably don't need to rage.
You build is becoming pretty brittle. All your feats and abilites are offensive. Consider some defensive protections. Lightning reflexes (neither class has good reflex saves), toughness (you have low hp for a melee machine), etc...
At least make sure you have several defensive spells.
You could ask if you could take the rage mage prestige class from 3.5. Normally 3.5 prestige classes are something I would never recommend, but multiclass ones always have a chance. Plus you're giving up more than you would have in 3.5 so it's not as broken a choice. Also, rage mage!
EDIT: Updating it would be fairly simple. Have it stack with barb for rage rounds/day and Tebser's transformation is just transformation.
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote: Not bad as a whole.
If I felt like I had to go to barb 8, I'd make that primary and go to barb 14. Close to even levels is very tough. But not impossible, so if you really want to, give it a go. Might depend on how tough your GM is or how optimized the rest of the group is (it is no fun being way behind everyone else).
Unless you've got a reach weapon or are going to use enlarge person a lot I would probably not take combat reflexes. If you do take it, make sure your dex is high enough to be worth it.
I'm not sure you are enough of a caster for expanded arcana to be worth it. Only take if there is a another specific spell that you think you will use alot. Don't take it to just "get a more well rounded spell selection." It is impossible to take enough times to make you a utility wizard.
Does you GM tend to throw enough really tough fights at you in one day to need the extra rage? If the fight is just some mooks or guards you probably don't need to rage.
You build is becoming pretty brittle. All your feats and abilites are offensive. Consider some defensive protections. Lightning reflexes (neither class has good reflex saves), toughness (you have low hp for a melee machine), etc...
At least make sure you have several defensive spells.
I see what you're saying about the barb 8; after looking at the benefits of those two levels, I'm scaling that back. Thanks a lot for your suggestions!
If you've got room in your rage powers, you're someone who could actually benefit from spirit totem with your high charisma score. Those were meant for multiclass barb/casters.
Will you be starting at first level? Consider advancing as a high strength sorcerer until you get (at least) second level spells. Your high strength score should help the lack of BAB be less of an issue.
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