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Here is the question:
Lets say I have Chill touch locked and loaded.
Oh look! A Wandering Damsel in distress! I think I shall show my manhood by charging her with a bullrush thrown in for added man-ness!
I reach out and...
what happens and in what order? Do I run into her.. the spell goes off as soon as I come into contact with someone/something.. I get bullrush?
Do I run into her... spell goes off.. bullrush is hampered?
The second part to the question is this:
I am currently grappling the same Damsel (its something we do ok)
I make my grapple check and I get a free attack.. but.. did my spell already go off since I am in contact with her as well? (this story of random damsel charging probably goes better with "Ghoul Touch" I guess.
This question came up where my Sorc/Dragon Disciple charged to knock someone over a ledge while holding a charge and the rules say that the spell goes off when the hand holding it touches anything (even a weapon)... then the next turn I grabbed him for a grapple and the question still held true as to what happens with the touch spell.
help?
Do I run into her... spell goes off.. bullrush is hampered?
I guess I would have the chill touch effect discharge when you succeed at the combat maneuver. The rules for held charges and non-attack touching are kind of vague. (Why would crashing into someone with your shoulder discharge the spell while something biting your arm/neck/etc doesn't?)
I don't see how the bullrush attempt would be hampered either way, though.
I make my grapple check and I get a free attack.. but.. did my spell already go off since I am in contact with her as well?
I would probably do the same thing with the grapple. As soon as you initiate physical contact and win a roll, the spell discharges.
I would also probably do it backwards, if she started it. Meaning you have a held charge, she grapples you, you don't get to discharge until you succeed on either an attack or a grapple check.
None of this is really backed up by the rules, so YMMV.
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According to the Pathfinder text, you don't have to discharge the touch spell when holding and then attacking a target, even if it is with the same "hand" that you're holding the spell with. Quoting the relevant bits,
Touch:You must touch a creature or object to affect it.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.
So it would appear that touch attacks can be held until you specifically choose a target and make the appropriate successful touch attack(or until you cast another spell), regardless of how you choose to assault them otherwise.
According to the Pathfinder text, you don't have to discharge the touch spell when holding and then attacking a target, even if it is with the same "hand" that you're holding the spell with.
You're missing this part:
(Combat) Holding the Charge: "If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges."
"If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges."
If you touch, not if someone touches you.
I take this to be an action you take. It is the most balanced interpretation. You won't be discharging on creatures who attack you with natural weapons, but if you forget about the spell, and pick up a scroll, guess what is getting the spell discharged into it.
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Nice catch Grick, I thought I looked thoroughly but I missed that.
So, to reverse my original comment,
You can't hold a touch spell if you attack (and hit) with an unarmed strike, and the spell dissipates if you intentionally arm yourself with a weapon.
Now to get specific, does the Combat Maneuver Check count as your touch attack, or do you roll a touch attack separately after a successful combat maneuver to see if the spell works or is simply dissipated?
@Tarantula, Grick wasn't implying the text in that fashion, but that's a good reminder anyway for people who didn't know that distinction before.
The only time you make a touch attack is the free one you get when you first cast the spell, or if you use a standard action to make a touch attack to touch with the spell.
Otherwise, if you touch something (unarmed strike/picking up a weapon) it will discharge on the something. I would rule this includes succeeding at a CMD, because logically you have to touch them to bull-rush/trip/grapple/etc them.
You would definitely never make a CMD followed by a touch attack.
You can't hold a touch spell if you attack (and hit) with an unarmed strike, and the spell dissipates if you intentionally arm yourself with a weapon.
Magus is exempt from this. (FAQ)
Outside of the Magus, there is some variance in DMs as to what exactly is covered by the "touch anything" clause. Some DMs interpret this to literally mean any object that touches you in any way, including a weapon you're holding, glove or ring you're wearing, spell component pouch, sleeve of your robe, raindrops, etc.
Many other DMs will rule an exemption for whatever objects you may have been holding or wearing when the spell was cast. (And weather, and bugs, and dust, and dead skin cells, etc.) These are usually the same DMs who don't rule that you must hold the charge in a specific body part. (See this FAQ request for details)
Now to get specific, does the Combat Maneuver Check count as your touch attack, or do you roll a touch attack separately after a successful combat maneuver to see if the spell works or is simply dissipated?
It should work the same as with an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack. You make the attack against whatever it would normally be, and discharge the spell on a hit.
So if you have a held charge, and you bite someone, you roll against normal AC with your bite attack, and if it hits, deal bite damage and discharge the spell.
For the grapple/bullrush/whatever, this isn't explicitly covered in the rules, but I would run it the same way. Make the combat maneuver check against normal CMD, and if it works, do the CM and discharge the spell.