Hello,
I'm new to Pathfinder and am learning the rules. I have read the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Advanced Players Guide combat rules, feats and rules many times.
I have been trying to understand the ins and outs of a fighter - specifically the 2-Handed Fighters archetype. I will be using the 2 handed greatsword.
Applying all these feats and abilities to combat requires a lot of mechanics and combinations of various combat rules and actions. It really isn't very straight forward. Is this the main damage strategy for fighters?
My next post will deal with Attacks of Opportunities - it seems that I can apply the attack framework detailed below to each AoO (Cleave is my attack action and then I add Power Attack, Overhand Chop/ Backswing & Vital Strike as enhancements of this attack action).
Being a Human Fighter (2-Handed archetype) level 7, 16 STR with the following 9 feats and using a Greatsword (2D6):
1. Power Attack - Str 13, base attack bonus +1 - You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.
2. Weapon Focus - Proficiency with weapon, base attack bonus +1 - +1 bonus on attack rolls with one weapon
3. Furious Focus - Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1 - When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack's penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
4. Weapon Specialization - Weapon Focus, 4th-level fighter - +2 bonus on damage rolls with one weapon
5. Vital Strike - Base attack bonus +6 - Deal twice the normal damage on a single attack. When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
6. Cleave - Power Attack - As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach.
7. Combat Reflexes - Make additional attacks of opportunity
8. Improved Overrun - Power Attack - +2 bonus on overrun attempts, no attack of opportunity
9. Greater Overrun - Improved Overrun, base attack bonus +6 - You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Overrun. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.
OR
Great Cleave - Cleave, base attack bonus +4 - Make an additional attack after each attack hits
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.
BAB is +7/+2. Power Attack with Furious Focus gives +0 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2. Overhand Chop +6 dmg (STR 3x2)
***So I can either do a Standard Action or a Full-Round Action.***
Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly to make an attack or cast a spell.
Attack - Making an attack is a standard action.
Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used as a separate action.
From the wording that I have read for each feat and attack ability I use all of the following abilities in my standard action single attack:
• Power Attack - Str 13, base attack bonus +1 - You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.
• Cleave - Power Attack - As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach.
• Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
• Vital Strike - Base attack bonus +6 - Deal twice the normal damage on a single attack. When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
So Cleave is my attack action and then I add Overhand Chop & Vital Strike as enhancements of this attack action.
2D6 x 2 Vital Strike = 4D6 +9/+22 {BAB is +7/+2. Power Attack with Furious Focus gives +0 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2. Overhand Chop +6 dmg (STR 3x2)}
If I hit on the 1st attack I continue with another single attack, using the same attack detailed above, on another target as per Cleave or numerous additional single attacks with Great Cleave - If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach.
Full-Round Action: Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
Attack - Making an attack is a standard action.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
***So, as stated in the Full Attack section, you can make a single melee attack and then choose to complete your additional attacks as a Full Attack Full-Round Action or use your move action. The rules do not require you to state all of your actions at the beginning of your round that you intend to do. You don't have to specify a full attack at the beginning of the round, you can make a single attack (Making an attack is a standard action), see how that goes then proceed to carry on with a normal move or you could do additional attacks along with a 5 foot step.
So, the additional attacks of Full-Round Action (multiple attacks) are each standard actions.***
As a two-handed fighter, your first attack receives the bonus of Overhand Chop. After that, if you decide to make your others multiple attacks, those attacks receives the bonus of Backswing.
I interpret that the developers explicitly specified in Backswing "for all attacks after the first " so that when you open up with Overhand Chop you wouldn't apply its modifier on top of any modifiers from Backswing . These two class abilities for the 2-Handed Fighter are made to be in tandem I would think.
Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.
***So, with all of this, I would make the following attack option on each of the attacks when taking Full-Round Action (multiple attacks):***
Cleave is my attack action and then I add Overhand Chop/ Backswing & Vital Strike as enhancements of this attack action.
2D6 x 2 Vital Strike = 4D6 +9/+22 {BAB is +7/+2. Power Attack with Furious Focus gives +0 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2. Overhand Chop/ Backswing +6 dmg (STR 3x2)}
If I hit on the 1st attack I continue with another single attack, using the same attack detailed above, on another target as per Cleave or numerous additional single attacks with Great Cleave - If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach.
So, the additional attacks of Full-Round Action (multiple attacks) are each standard actions
Iterative attacks are not actions.
In any given round if you want to attack you canMake a standard action to attack
Make a full round action to unleash all of your attacks.
Make a standard action to use an attack feat (here cleave or vital strike)
vital strike and cleave require you to specify that you are making one of them. As said by Nicos you can't make both in the same round as they require a standard action and you only have one per round.
Overhand chop applies only if you make a single attack in the round, not if you make a full attack. I'm not sure it works with cleave or vital strike.
Backswing works if you make a full attack, not if you make a single attack and as such doesn't work with either cleave or vital strike.
PS : you might want to put some order in this post, it is really difficult to understand.
First: Power Attack at level 1 with a two-handed weapon, it would be a -1 penalty to attack, and a +3 bonus to damage (not a +2 as that's for when using a weapon one-handed)
Second: Is there a question someone in that Wall of Text first post or is it just to check on the math/action use/logic?
Applying all these feats and abilities to combat requires a lot of mechanics and combinations of various combat rules and actions. It really isn't very straight forward. Is this the main damage strategy for fighters?
Yes, applying feats and abilities to combat is the main damage strategy for fighters.
My next post will deal with Attacks of Opportunities - it seems that I can apply the attack framework detailed below to each AoO (Cleave is my attack action and then I add Power Attack, Overhand Chop/ Backswing & Vital Strike as enhancements of this attack action).
You cannot apply Cleave or Overhand Chop or Backswing or Vital Strike to an attack of opportunity.
You can apply Power Attack. If you used Power Attack earlier in the round, then you have no choice but to keep using it until your next turn.
I'll address the rest of your post outside the framework of attacks of opportunity.
From the wording that I have read for each feat and attack ability I use all of the following abilities in my standard action single attack:
No.
Cleave is a standard action. When you use your standard action to use Cleave, you cannot use that same standard action to do anything else, such as use the attack action, cast a spell, or drink a potion.
Power Attack stacks with pretty much everything. Before you make an attack, any attack, at any time, you can choose to 'turn on' power attack. When you do so, it stays on until the start of your next turn. Every attack you make until that time is modified by the power attack bonuses and penalties.
Overhand Chop only works when you use the attack action or a charge. The attack action is a specific standard action, and charge is a full-round action (unless restricted to a standard). If you're not performing a charge, or the attack action, you cannot use Overhand Chop.
Vital Strike only works when you use the attack action. So if you use your standard action to perform the attack action, you can benefit from both Vital Strike and Overhand Chop.
If you do so, using the stats you posted above, you would make one attack roll at +12 (+7 BAB, +3 Str, +1 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon Focus) and add any other bonuses to hit like Flanking, bless, etc.
If that attack hits, you deal 4d6+9 damage. (2x weapon dice from Vital Strike, 2x Str bonus from Overhand Chop, +1 weapon training, +2 weapon spec)
If you choose to use Power Attack before that attack, you would instead make one attack roll at +10 (as above -2 from PA) and deal 4d6+15 damage (as above +6 from PA).
If you have Furious Focus, then you would negate the -2 attack penalty from Power Attack on that first attack only. (+12 to deal 4d6+15)
Instead of all that, you could instead use your standard action to Cleave. You will not get to use Vital Strike or Overhand Chop, but you could use Power Attack. You can use Furious Focus ONLY for the first attack you make.
You don't have to specify a full attack at the beginning of the round, you can make a single attack (Making an attack is a standard action), see how that goes then proceed to carry on with a normal move or you could do additional attacks along with a 5 foot step.
This only works if there's no effective difference between the first attack of your full attack and a single attack made with the attack action. As soon as you use something that only works with one of those actions, you are locked into that choice.
Basically, the section on choosing between a single or multiple attacks is to let you exchange your remaining attacks with a move action if you kill the only foe in reach with your first hit.
So, the additional attacks of Full-Round Action (multiple attacks) are each standard actions.***
No. You get either [1 standard action and 1 move action] or [1 full round action]
As a two-handed fighter, your first attack receives the bonus of Overhand Chop. After that, if you decide to make your others multiple attacks, those attacks receives the bonus of Backswing.
If you use a full round action to full attack, you cannot benefit from Overhand Chop because OC requires a charge or attack action.
Likewise, if you use a charge or attack action, you cannot benefit from Backswing, because it requires a full attack.
I interpret that the developers explicitly specified in Backswing "for all attacks after the first " so that when you open up with Overhand Chop you wouldn't apply its modifier on top of any modifiers from Backswing . These two class abilities for the 2-Handed Fighter are made to be in tandem I would think.
Jason Nelson, the author of the archetype, has specified that it was intended as written here.
Welcome to pathfinder and the forums!
You made a well researched post, but it's also a long post, and it's hard to identify what your questions are out of it. I'll try to lay out the options, and if you still have questions, let us know. Some of this is stuff you already covered in your post, but please read it over again to make sure it matches your understanding.
First, a turn generally consists of either a full round action or a standard action and a move action. As a full round action, you can do a full attack to take every attack your BAB gives you (2 at 7th level: +7/+2). As a standard action, you can make one attack at your best BAB (+7). You can take the move action either before or after the standard action. In either case, you can also take a 5' step if you don't otherwise move.
There is a special rule (as you cited) which allows you to make the first attack from your full attack then decide to change the rest of your attacks into a move action. This is a special case, and you can't go in the other direction (make one attack as a standard action, then declare it as the start of a full attack). You do, however, get all benefits and drawbacks of making a full attack for that first attack.
So, what does each attack consist of for you?
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training together give you a +2 to hit and +3 to damage to every attack you make. Your strength of 16 gives you another +3 to hit and +4 to damage (3*1.5, rounded down), for a net of +5 to hit and +7 damage. This means that absent any other abilities, you'll be making either one attack as a standard action at BAB+5 (total of +12 to hit), or two attacks as a full attack at BAB+5 and BAB+5-5 (total of +12 to hit on the first attack, and +7 on the second). On each successful hit, you'd be doing 2d6+7 damage.
On any attack you make, you can choose to activate power attack, and it remains active for the rest of the round. At your level, with a two-handed weapon, power attack gives you a -2 penalty to attacks, and a +6 to damage. Furious Focus means you don't take the -2 penalty to your first attack (or only one, if you're only making one). This means that when you use Power Attack, your standard action attack becomes +12 and your full attack becomes +12/+5, all for 2d6+13.
Now for it to start getting complicated...
Because of the two-handed fighter archetype, you get both Overhand Chop and Backswing. Overhand Chop only helps single attacks as a standard action, while Backswing only helps full attacks. Overhand Chop is currently just +2 to your damage, making your standard attack (with power attack) into +12 (2d6+15). Backswing is the same for attacks after the first in a full attack, meaning your full attack is now +12 (2d6+13)/+5 (2d6+15).
On a standard attack, you can choose to either make a single normal attack, a normal attack enhanced by vital strike, or a cleave attack. We've already discussed the normal attack. Vital strike simply changes it from 2d6+15 to 4d6+15. Cleave is slightly more complicated: You'd make the first attack (at +12 for 2d6+15), and if it hit, you could attack something else (but without Furious Focus helping) at +10 for 2d6+15. (With Great Cleave, you'd continue making +10 attacks until you ran out of targets or missed.)
On a full attack, you couldn't Vital Strike or Cleave. You also wouldn't benefit from Overhand Chop. If you don't choose to abandon the rest of your full attack and move, you would benefit from Backswing on the second attack (as mentioned above), but you don't have anything else you can stack with it.
Hopefully, that helps clear things up.
Applying all these feats and abilities to combat requires a lot of mechanics and combinations of various combat rules and actions. It really isn't very straight forward. Is this the main damage strategy for fighters?Yes, applying feats and abilities to combat is the main damage strategy for fighters.
My next post will deal with Attacks of Opportunities - it seems that I can apply the attack framework detailed below to each AoO (Cleave is my attack action and then I add Power Attack, Overhand Chop/ Backswing & Vital Strike as enhancements of this attack action).You cannot apply Cleave or Overhand Chop or Backswing or Vital Strike to an attack of opportunity.
You can apply Power Attack. If you used Power Attack earlier in the round, then you have no choice but to keep using it until your next turn.
I'll address the rest of your post outside the framework of attacks of opportunity.
From the wording that I have read for each feat and attack ability I use all of the following abilities in my standard action single attack:No.
Cleave is a standard action. When you use your standard action to use Cleave, you cannot use that same standard action to do anything else, such as use the attack action, cast a spell, or drink a potion.
Power Attack stacks with pretty much everything. Before you make an attack, any attack, at any time, you can choose to 'turn on' power attack. When you do so, it stays on until the start of your next turn. Every attack you make until that time is modified by the power attack bonuses and penalties.
Overhand Chop only works when you use the attack action or a charge. The attack action is a specific standard action, and charge is a full-round action (unless restricted to a standard). If you're not performing a charge, or the attack action, you cannot use Overhand Chop.
Vital Strike only works when you use the attack action. So if you use your standard action to perform the attack action,...
Thanks for replying. All the terminology is confusing me so it's good to find out how others see it.
What can you apply to/use as an AoO? All that the rulebook says is:
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
It says it's a single melee attack with your full noraml attack bonuses. Why can't you add feats and abilities to an AoO? Why is it different from a normal melee attack?
So Cleave is not an attack action? What constitues an attack action then? Any non-special attack I assume then?
So I could either do Cleave with Power Attack
or
Vital Strike with Power Attack and Overhand Chop
What can you apply to/use as an AoO?
Anything that applies to an attack.
Anything that is restricted to a specific action can only be used with that specific action.
Why can't you add feats and abilities to an AoO?
You can, as long as they're not restricted so as not to work with an AoO.
Since Cleave is a standard action, you can't use it with an attack of opportunity.
Since Trip can be made in place of any attack, you could choose to trip as your attack of opportunity.
So Cleave is not an attack action? What constitues an attack action then? Any non-special attack I assume then?
Cleave is a specific standard action.
The attack action is also a specific standard action.
Anything that says "When you use the attack action, [STUFF]" will apply only when using the attack action.
Anything that says "As a standard action, [THINGS]" will apply only when using that specific standard action, and not when using any other standard action.
So I could either do Cleave with Power Attack
or
Vital Strike with Power Attack and Overhand Chop
Correct.
OK, so I have 3 main attack options with this build using greatsword 2-handed:
Cleave with Power Attack (26 avg dmg per target)
2D6 +12/+20 {BAB is +7. Strength +3 hit/+4 dmg (STR 3x 1.5). Power Attack with Furious Focus gives +0 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2.}
Vital Strike with Overhand Chop & Power Attack (36 avg dmg)
2D6 x 2 Vital Strike = 4D6 +12/+22 {BAB is +7. Strength +3 hit & Overhand Chop +6 dmg (STR 3x2). Power Attack with Furious Focus gives +0 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2.}
Multi attack (2) with Backswing & Power Attack (43 avg dmg)
1st attack:
2D6 +12/+20 {BAB is +7. Strength +3 hit/+4 dmg (STR 3x 1.5). Power Attack with Furious Focus gives +0 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2.}
2nd attack:
2D6 +5/+17 {BAB is +2. Strength +3 hit/+6 dmg Backswing (STR 3 x 2). Power Attack with -2 hit/+6 damage (+4 x 1.5). Weapon training gets you +1/+1. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization get you +1/+2.}
Your notation is hard to read.
Cleave with Power Attack
Standard action to use Cleave: Make one attack at +12, dealing 2d6+13 damage if it hits.
If it does hit, make a second attack against a target within reach that is adjacent to the first, at +10, dealing 2d6+13 damage if it hits.
Vital Strike with Overhand Chop & Power Attack
Standard action to use the attack action: One attack at +12, dealing 4d6+15 damage.
Multi attack (2) with Backswing & Power Attack
Full-round action to full attack:
First attack at +12, dealing 2d6+13 damage if it hits.
Second attack at +5, dealing 2d6+15 damage if it hits.
Any attack of opportunity you make after your first attack using power attack and before the start of your next turn would be made at +10, and dealing 2d6+13 damage if it hits.
(Someone check my math, please.
Attacks: BAB+7 WT+1 WF+1 Str+3 PA-2
Damage: WT+1 WS+2 PA+6 Str+4 [+6 when doubled] )
OK so you are saying Base Attack Bonus (BAB) only applies to hit rolls and not to damage rolls as well?
Core Rulebook:
Base Attack Bonus (BAB): Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat).
I really wish Pathfinder made terminology simpler...
OK so you are saying Base Attack Bonus (BAB) only applies to hit rolls and not to damage rolls as well?
Correct.
Damage
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
Thanks Grick and Bobson for clarifying all of this. I found a lot of combat rules and feats to be ambiguous on 1st reading especially when they apply/dont' apply to each other.