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I have a fighter with Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Cleave. What I want to know is as follows.
I attack and down an opponent using Power Attack and Furious Focus, this gives me a free cleave attack, I know I can use Power Attack with Cleave for extra damage, but does Furious Focus still negate my power attack penalty to the cleave attack or does the penalty from power attack kick in because the cleave attack is considered a second attack?
Thanks all.
First, you don't get a choice about using Power Attack on the second attack. Once you activate it, it's up for the round.
Second, yes, I believe you do get the penalty on the second attack. Nothing in the rules seems to imply otherwise.
I think you get the benefit from furious focus on the cleave attack also, since it is all part of the same swing or "cleave". I used to think otherwise like Deadmanwalking till I asked the GM, and he convinced me. Plesantly surprised :)
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cleave
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Furious focus
When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
seperate attack, so no furious focus, bonus. sam with AoO's an
Some of you say yes some of you say no. I'm just as perplexed as when I posed the question. lol. I assume you don't get the bonus...
It's not "some say yes, some say no."
It's "Some say yes, some quote the rules to prove why it's no".Name Violation is entirely correct, except in not using [ quote ] tags to set the actual rule text aside so that it's clear that he's quoting. Which is really just a minor quibble easily fixed:
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.seperate attack, so no furious focus, bonus. sam with AoO's an
Basically, since you have to roll the attack a second time for the second target of cleave, it no longer counts as the first attack for purposes of Furious Focus (or true strike or anything else that affects the first attack of the turn).
3.5 Cleave and Great Cleave caused a lot of problems by carrying over 'one-strike' bonuses. Fairly easy to see that these feats were set up with language to avoid that very problem.
Kindly note that "if you down them" is no longer a Cleave pre-requisite (you're thinking 3.5). Basically you can hit two guys standing next to one another with Cleave if you announce that intent and take a -2 to your AC.
Note that if you are using 3.5 Cleave, the Furious Focus bonus should carry over, since the second attack hits at the same chance as the first one, regardless of what Furious Focus says.
Hmm. I could be mistaken there. Furious FOcus doesn't actually grant a bonus, it cancels a penalty. Does 3.5 Cleave say the second attack is at the same chance as the first, or at the same bonus? Because being at the same bonus doesn't cancel a penalty...being at the same chance does.
==Bob Drouin
Note that the feat basically becomes useless at level 6+ as soon as you get that extra attack. Most people train it out after that point.
==Aelryinth
Still it's nice when you only have a standard attack and it is still useful since the second cleave attack is at full BAB.
Note that the feat basically becomes useless at level 6+ as soon as you get that extra attack. Most people train it out after that point.
==Aelryinth
Unless yours is a character that uses the Vital Strike feat chain. =P
I was referring to the use of Furious Focus with Vital Strike, not Cleave. If a character is dead set on using the Vital Strike feats Furious Focus is amazingly helpful because it's effectively a straight damage increase at the cost of a feat.
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I was referring to the use of Furious Focus with Vital Strike, not Cleave. If a character is dead set on using the Vital Strike feats Furious Focus is amazingly helpful because it's effectively a straight damage increase at the cost of a feat.
Well, it's always a straight damage increase. Just slightly less of one on a Full Attack than a Vital Strike.
So is it better to get Vital Strike and not use full attack then?
Unless you are focusing on maximizing vital strike, a full attack is better. Vital strike can be nice to have when a full attack isn't available but don't bother taking the full tree. It is a 3 feats chain for a backup plan.
PS: Vital strike is better for barbarians than for fighters thanks to furious finish.
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So is it better to get Vital Strike and not use full attack then? I could see it being better when you only have a standard action, but is it better than a full attack with 2 or more attacks?
If most of your damage comes from your weapon, yes. If most of it comes from static bonuses (like Strength or power attack), or from extra dice (like sneak attack), then no. If it's about even, then I'd go for VS just because you can do it whether or not you move, but for most characters weapon dice tends to be the smallest part of the damage they do.
Vital strike does not replace the damage from a full attack sequence. It only makes the standard action more palatable. Note: I wont state that it absolutely never does better since I don't know every single combination out there.
Example: Fighter using THF archetype and greatsword at level 6:
VS damage = 25.69DPR
FA damage = 33.00DPR
At level 11:
VS damage = 62.32DPR
FA damage = 98.40DPR
At level 16:
VS damage = 94.05DPR
FA damage = 189.00DPR
Human with an 18strength.
Strength increases by level at all levels.
Strength belt: +2@5, +4@11, +6@14
Vital strike tree at levels 6, 11, 16 and Devastating Strike at 10.
Power Attack @1, Furious focus at 1.
Weapon Focus at 1 and 8.
Weapon Specialization at 4 and 12.
Improved Critical @9.
Magic enhancement to weapon +1@4, +2@8, +3@11, +4@13, +5@16.
Gloves of Dueling@11.
- Gauss
Gauss,
Did you take into account that each subsequent attack has a 25% less chance to hit than the first one? Yes, obviously if you hit with all your attacks then a full round attack is significantly better, but if you account for the increased miss chance I suspect that the numbers are much closer.
ThorGN, I absolutely took that into account. I use the standard DPR formula in an excel table. For AC I use the appropriate CR AC listed in table 1-1 of the bestiary.
Each attack is: (chance to hit*(avg damage+VS damage))+(chance to hit*(crit modifier-1)*chance for threat*avg damage)
Then add together the damage for each attack.
Yes, I only apply Furious Focus to the first attack.
For full attack remove the VS damage from the equation.
While I am not infallible these should be close. The fact is, Vital strike just cannot stand up to full attack.
Extra note: I did NOT use haste in the above calculations. Haste/speed would make the disparity worse.
- Gauss
P.S. Technically, each attack has a 25% chance less than the previous one but the second has a variable 5-30% (across 20levels) chance less than the first due to Furious Focus.
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Like a fine wine, the argument improves if given time to age. ;)
Cleave does support subsequent feats in the chain like Cleaving finish. Those are really good for clearing mooks.
Cleave does have an advantage over iterative attacks in that it allows positioning prior to multiple attacks (if the geometry works out, mind you, it's still a bottom of the chain feat).