No. Only permanent (that is, longer than 24 hour) stat changes affect things like bonus spells.
Mauril has it right. Ability damage and ability penalties count upwards (much like nonlethal damage) and has the following effects, depending on which score is effected:
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
Watch out for spells and effects that deal ability damage/penalties AND hinder spellcasting, however (such as feeblemind or touch of idiocy). Such things are the exception to the rule, and do exactly what their descriptions say.
What if a poison reduces (for example) intelligence below the level required to cast some levels of spells?
If you haven't fixed the problem by the time it comes to prepare spells, aren't you SOL on those spell levels you used to be able to cast?
Does the effect of the poison last more than 24 hours? Then it messes with bonus spells and such. If it doesn't last more than 24 hours, it doesn't. It's pretty simple.
The damage done by the poison can take days to heal from...
Does the effect of the poison last more than 24 hours? Then it messes with bonus spells and such. If it doesn't last more than 24 hours, it doesn't. It's pretty simple.
I don't think this is right. The 24 hour rule only seems to exist in regards to bonuses, not damage/penalties.
Short of something stating an exception (such as touch of idiocy), ability damage never interferes with one's ability to cast spells (though it may reduces said spells' save DCs).
I'm not going to hunt it up and copy it, but the minimum (insert caster attribute) required to cast an nth-level spell is 10+n.
If a poison has reduced your Int to 12, until you heal the ability damage, no fireballs or phantasmal killers for you, poisoned wizard.
Or so it seems to me.
I'm not going to hunt it up and copy it, but the minimum (insert caster attribute) required to cast an nth-level spell is 10+n.
If a poison has reduced your Int to 12, until you heal the ability damage, no fireballs or phantasmal killers for you, poisoned wizard.
Or so it seems to me.
Except ability damage doesn't EVER lower your score. Ability damage counts up, much like nonlethal damage does.
Ability DRAIN, on the other hand, will do what you're thinking.
It certainly limits your capacity to function at your score.
It certainly limits your capacity to function at your score.
True, but the rules are quite clear in EXACTLY how it limits your capacity. See my spoiler, above, for the relevant rules.
I'll have to go read the relevant section. No offense meant to you by that. I am, however, unconvinced that having an effective score of 10 in one's casting stat wouldn't incapacitate one as a caster. (Good thing I've got cantrips!)
And given the scarcity and crappy DCs of poisons that do mental-stat damage, it's not ever likely to be that much of an issue either way, really. Even wizards can make THOSE Fortitude saves...
I'll have to go read the relevant section. No offense meant to you by that. I am, however, unconvinced that having an effective score of 10 in one's casting stat wouldn't incapacitate one as a caster. (Good thing I've got cantrips!)
And given the scarcity and crappy DCs of poisons that do mental-stat damage, it's not ever likely to be that much of an issue either way, really. Even wizards can make THOSE Fortitude saves...
If it helps, you can find the relevant rules in your Core Book's glossary under ABILITY SCORE DAMAGE, PENALTY, AND DRAIN. <--- Alternatively, you can click this link to see those same rules in the Official Online Pathfinder Reference Document.
Happy hunting!
Incidentally, this is of much help to our party's full plate cavalier, who just found herself on the wrong end of a bestow curse.
They word it rather strangely, though:
-6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
Doesn't say "damage", "drain", or "penalty". So I'm not yet certain how to treat it.
I think this quote (taken from Ravingdork's link) sums it up pretty well.
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
Since bonus spells are neither a skill nor a statistic, they stay. Since the ability to cast spells are neither a skill nor a statistic, they stay. Things like save DCs or concentration checks are reduced.
Think of it this way, an alchemist with an INT reduction from his mutagen doesn't suddenly lose skill points. That's a relatively static thing based on an ability score, so why would another relatively static thing based on an ability score (bonus spells, or which spells are available) be reduced?
Ability drain on the other hand, would cause you to lose spell casting functionality.
Still, it'd be easier to adjudicate if bestow curse had actually used the word "damage" or "drain". Or even "penalty". Oh well. I'll treat it like damage. This will be good news for the cavalier, who can still manage to walk to her horse in the full plate and climb into the saddle.
I always liked 3.5's description of what happens:
Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
Bestow curse actually reduces an ability score, and thus should effect pretty much everything related to said ability score.
Things like save DCs or concentration checks are reduced.
Concentration checks, surprisingly, are not effected by ability damage or ability penalties.
Things like save DCs or concentration checks are reduced.Concentration checks, surprisingly, are not effected by ability damage or ability penalties.
Why are concentration checks not affected? It's an ability check, is it not? Am I missing some important text on concentration checks that make them different?
Concentration checks include the bonus for 'relevant ability modifier' thus should include the penalty for the same if they are reduced via ability score damage or drain. The problem is that in the text regarding ability drain and damage it only mentions skill checks and spell DCs. Nothing about concentration checks (which are no longer skill based). - Gauss
You know, bestow curse ability decrease can't be damage, as ability damage would heal over time. And it can't be drain, since restoration doesn't appear to work on it. Given that, it'd have to be a penalty. Meaning that after 24 hours, she's not going to be doing so well carrying that full plate, much less wearing it.
Hope they get back to a real town or city soon. Maybe I'll leave a big boulder in their path. If only they could push it out of the way. . . . </evildm>
As Ravingdork mentions above, the rules on temporary bonuses becoming permanent are only explicitly written regarding bonuses (and not penalties), there is enough precedence in the rules of using "bonus" when "modifier" was meant (and vice versa) that it seems a reasonable RAI interpretation to apply this rule to poisons.
Mind you, if a poison says that it is ability drain, then it automatically reduces the actual ability score and all the things associated with it (including hit points, bonus spells, etc.).
The only things that are explicitly spelled out are (thanks for the quick ref, Ravingdork):
* ability damage (has the listed effects; does not actually modify ability score; does not cause recalculation of everything, even after 24 hours, IIUC)
* ability drain (actually reduces ability score; recalculate everything immediately)
* ability bonus (applies to ability-based rolls and such; doesn't cause actual recalculation of everything until 24 hours)
* ability penalty (acts like damage, but can't reduce below 1).
Since bestow curse says "decrease", it makes things more difficult. I've now changed my mind three or four times on how to handle it, all based on RAW and interpretations of it. It would help if they errata'd the text in bestow curse to be explicit about it. Or, it might be left to the caster's interpretation; after all, it is a very open ended spell.
You missed one, blahpers.
* ability damage (has the listed effects; does not actually modify ability score; does not cause recalculation of everything, even after 24 hours, IIUC)
* ability drain (actually reduces ability score; recalculate everything immediately)
* ability bonus (applies to ability-based rolls and such; doesn't cause actual recalculation of everything until 24 hours)
* ability penalty (acts like damage, but can't reduce below 1).
* ability decrease (actually reduces ability score; recalculate everything immediately, functionally similar to ability drain, but often cannot be restored to normal values, or is very difficult to restore to normal values)
The last one is for things like bestow curse or the effects of aging.
|
So what happens if say, poison brings you down to zero strength? Does it paralyze you?
and to make sure that Things are straight in my head...
if you take say... 6 str damage from poison, bringing you from 16 to 10, what happens? You take a -3 penalty to attack and damage, and -3 to str skills, that's pretty simple. it should also change carry weight, and other stuff having to do with strength. Now, if you take con damage of the same amount, than you would lose three from your fort save, and 3 hit points per level, from max and current, right?
And for bonuses becoming permanent after 24 hours, what's the difference between it being a temp bonus and 'permanent'? Like a belt of strength, I'm a little confused about that.
Ungol Dust and Shadowy Essence are the only poisons in the core book that deal ability drain. All the rest deal ability damage. The rules on damage and drain apply as normal.
|
|
if you take say... 6 str damage from poison, bringing you from 16 to 10The key point is that this doesn't happen. Ability damage doesn't lower the ability score at all.
If you have 16 STR and take 6 STR damage, you still have 16 STR.
I understand that. I'm talking about your EFFECTIVE strength. you take a -6 penalty to strength for the purpose of skills and checks. Knowing I understand that, can i get an answer to my questions?
Your Strength would be 16 still, so anything that required a strength of 16 (something you previously qualified for), you still qualify. If it is strength damage, this is what happens:
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
If it's not listed, it doesn't change. Your "effective" strength is still 16, since your strength never changed. You just take a penalty to strength related things.
Your score isn't changing. You are adding an entirely independent penalty associated with the same effects.
Damage to any ability score has no effects other than those listed. Drain actually reduces the score and has other effects.
Con damage:
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Please read the relevant rules section. It does a really good job of explaining this.
so you've got a 16 strength, and you accumulate 16 strength damage from a really bad day. you take a penalty on a lot of things, but your actual strength isn't reduced, so you're not considered Encumbered or anything right?
Your encumbrance would not change, but you'd be unconscious (or dead if the strength damage came from a shadow).
You missed one, blahpers.
* ability damage (has the listed effects; does not actually modify ability score; does not cause recalculation of everything, even after 24 hours, IIUC)
* ability drain (actually reduces ability score; recalculate everything immediately)
* ability bonus (applies to ability-based rolls and such; doesn't cause actual recalculation of everything until 24 hours)
* ability penalty (acts like damage, but can't reduce below 1).
* ability decrease (actually reduces ability score; recalculate everything immediately, functionally similar to ability drain, but often cannot be restored to normal values, or is very difficult to restore to normal values)The last one is for things like bestow curse or the effects of aging.
Sorry, didn't see that in your handy-dandy spoiler nor on the site. Could you cite?
That's because it isn't in my spoiler or on the site. It just is. Bestow curse says you lower the score so you lower the score. Simple as that. It's not a defined general mechanic, it's just what the spell does.
Same with aging. You simply lower your scores.
Well, went and read it (in the book; neither like nor trust electronic media).
Now I have a new houserule.
|
|
alright, two more questions, and this is for the sake of clarification, yes i've read the relevant rules sections and read this thread completely.
situation 1: If you have an int item that gives you enough int to get you from a 15 to a 16, and therefore granting a higher bonus, does it, after 24 hours, grant additional skill points? If so, i would assume you lose those skill points when you take the item off, and would have to reassign them again upon wearing said item for 24 more hours.
situation 2: i have a character that has a 10 intelligence, but wants to go into 'student of war' PrC, which requires combat expertise. needing a 13 int, he buys an int +3 item, and wears it for 24 hours. He levels, and takes combat expertise, since the bonus has become permanent. if he takes off the item, he loses the use of the feat. If he is in the student of war class, and the item is removed, does he lose the use of the entire class, since combat expertise is now denied to him, and he can no longer use it? he would keep BAB, saves and skills, but lose all else?
This could be applied to someone with two weapon fighting, not wanting to bring their dex from 17 to 19 to qualify for greater two-weapon fighting. can he qualify for it with a dex item?
These are just questions, meant to clarify things. If i'm wrong, set me straight. thanks again for all the help!
|
1. No, but the item gives you full ranks in some skill as a bonus. See headband of intellect in the core rule book.
2. Yes, you can use items to qualify for feats. You just lose access to the feat if you take it off. You would lose access to feats and abilities that required int 13, I don't think that would stop you from leveling, since those are prerequisites for entry into the prestige class.
3. The only per stated items to boost scores come in +2, +4 , and +6 flavors.
If you had a 15int and read a tome , you would gain skill points you could allocate as if you added your bonus stat from leap year levels (4, 8,12 etc). To have a +1 headband of vast intellect you would have to have it custom crafted , Gm Fiat.
|
|
awesome, never noticed that, easily fixes the question.
As for magic items giving odd numbered bonuses, I dont see anything in the rules that says you cannot make an item that gives an odd numbered bonus, just that they arent normally sold. So for custom-made items, I dont see why you couldnt make one with a +3 or +5. Though, as you stated, completely up to the GM. thanks for the answers!
|
|
Well, considering I'm the spokeman for my group, they had another question. for con damage it reads...
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
does that mean that if I take 2 con damage, from a 16 to a 14, i take twice my level hp loss from max and current hp? which would make the damage hurt you twice as much as positive con helps you? that doesnt seem to make sense, is all. If that's the case, then ouch.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Another important thing to remember about ability damage is that since it doesn't reduce the score and only applies penalties for every two points, it doesn't matter whether your ability score is even or odd.
For instance, if you have 16 STR and take 1 point of STR damage, you're completely unaffected. But if you have 16 STR and take 1 point of STR drain, you go down to 15 and your modifier goes down.
awesome, never noticed that, easily fixes the question.
As for magic items giving odd numbered bonuses, I dont see anything in the rules that says you cannot make an item that gives an odd numbered bonus, just that they arent normally sold. So for custom-made items, I dont see why you couldnt make one with a +3 or +5. Though, as you stated, completely up to the GM. thanks for the answers!
While there's no rule against odd-value stat boosters, it's considered to be a very cheesy/metagamey thing to do. One of the devs put it something like this at one point:
The fact that you only gain a tangible benefit from every other point in a stat is not something that characters are aware of. They don't go around saying "I have a 15 int", they say "I'm reasonably smart". An even-value boost item grants everyone the same benefit. Whether they have an even score or an odd score, they get a +1, +2 or +3 to all their relevant checks. An odd-value boost item, however, behaves different for different people. Half the population will get either a +1, +2 or +3 out of it, the other half will get a +0, +1 or +2 out of it. So for half the population, it's an amazing bargain, and the other half it's ridiculously overpriced. And there's no in-world explanation possible, because stat scores are a metagame value.
Obviously, it's up to the GM. But if the GM allows the players to create odd stat items, then they should find such as treasure... and have to deal with stat boosters which take up more value in the treasure than the benefits they provide, because no one who needs it has an odd stat.