Ability Focus (breath weapon) and Crush / Tail Sweep


Rules Questions


I was in the process of building some dragons and I stumbled across something weird regarding the Crush ability. For simplicity, here it is (emphasis mine).

Quote:
Crush (Ex): A flying or jumping Huge or larger dragon can land on foes as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A crush attack affects as many creatures as fit in the dragon's space. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon's breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, it must succeed at a combat maneuver check as normal. Pinned foes take damage from the crush each round if they don't escape. A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus.

Rather than stating that the DC for Crush is 10 + 1/2 HD + Con Mod, it states that the DC is the same as that of the breath weapon. This creates a weird interaction where Ability Focus (breath weapon) also increases the DC of Crush. And, by strict RAW, where Ability Focus (Crush) might not do anything at all.

Tail Sweep has identical wording regarding its DC as well.

Am I missing something? RAI is probably that it doesn't do this, but RAW?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

RAW, Ability Focus on the breath weapon is all sorts of awesome for the dragon. That probably wasn't the intent, as you say, however.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Dragons have lots of special abilities and are supposed to be particularly challenging for their CR, so RAW and RAI, I believe, Ability Focus breath weapon would increase the DC of crush, etc. Otherwise, to increase the DC of all those special abilities would be a massive feat tax.


I just find it odd that the ability to smash things under my feet is directly tied to my ability to shoot fire out of my mouth.

That said, RAW makes ability focus (breath weapon) a fantastic feat for big dragons.


I Think that was short-hand for "DC calculated the same way as the breath weapon DC." The rule books are not written by lawyers and should not be read that way. Though different DMs will read them with different degrees of Lawyerness...


100% Agree with Knight Magenta.


Since "that of the dragon's breath weapon" actually has a higher character count than "10 + 1/2 HD + Con Mod" by 13 characters and it has only one less character than "10 + 1/2 HD + Constitution Modifier", it's not really short-hand.

I agree that RAI is probably that you calculate the ability DCs using the same formula, but that would be ignoring what the text actually says and applying the general rule for how ability DCs are applied. Since dragons are full of exceptions to general rules, it's a bit hard to clearly justify that it's not the case here too.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

For every other monster, special ability DCs are spelled out specifically for each ability or there is a general rule explained for all their abilities. I really think the designers meant any adjustments to the dragons' breath weapons are also to be passed on to their other special abilities.

Dragons are special. They are intentionally more difficult to overcome than their CR would indicate. Also, true dragons have 12 age categories, and to simplify statting up advanced or lesser versions of the dragons published in the Bestiary, the designers decided to use that special rule.

Dragons are complex. They have half a dozen different melee attacks, lots of spells, many special abilities, a breath weapon or two, plus the regular feats and skills monsters get.


Mauril wrote:
I just find it odd that the ability to smash things under my feet is directly tied to my ability to shoot fire out of my mouth.

Never watch Godzilla?

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