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I recently ran Devil We Know, part 2: Cassomir's Locker. The Taldor faction PC achieved none of his faction missions. What's more, he did not even bother to attempt to complete his missions. Nor did he ask me any questions about his missions nor how to go about completing them.
Missions and commentary in the spoiler below.
The second Taldor mission involves killing someone, beheading them, and bringing the head back to the faction leader. Granted, the group moved through the sewer system quickly and discovered the way down to Cassomir Below. I had printed out the sewer maps and had covered a small portion of the map so as not to give away any section they had not investigated. No one bothered to go back to that section of the map after locating the way to the lower level. No one voiced an opinion about searching the rest of the upper sewer level. (After the game session ended, a few players thought they would have time to go back and search the upper sewer sections they skipped the first time. Because of the nature of the room, stairs leading to a trap door in a above ground warehouse, I judged the evil cleric and his mite slave left the complex.)
After the session was over, I asked for feedback on how I did as a gm. This is something I always do, not just because the faction missions were a disaster; every other player received one Prestige point. The Taldor players' comment was he thought I brought an intensity to the game that limited his ability to banter with the other players and have a relaxed playing atmosphere. Yes, I can have this tendency but it is borne out of wanting to keep the game moving and not get derailed.
So, was I correct in awarding the Taldor faction PC zero Prestige points even though the party was successful in the scenario's mission? He had zero interest in the scenario's mission, displayed no interest in how to achieve his faction's missions, and really did almost nothing the entire game; he fell in a pit, fell in the sewer water (because he decided to roll his Acrobatic's check after every one else took 10 and was successful), used one class feature, and generally sat in the back and let everyone else move the action forward.
Coda: After talking the situation over with the event co-ordinator, we determined he would be awarded one Prestige because the group was successful.
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sounds like you made the right call the first time, no prestige points. it is the players responsibility to try to complete there faction missions. if they just sit there, than they fail. Now if this is a new player than I think we need to help them. Like the first one, I told my player that he would need to do a heal skill check. course this helped when they failed, but wanted to bring back some bolts instead. But back to new players, I am more helpful for there first level. After that there on there own.
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sounds like you made the right call the first time, no prestige points. it is the players responsibility to try to complete there faction missions. if they just sit there, than they fail. Now if this is a new player than I think we need to help them. Like the first one, I told my player that he would need to do a heal skill check. course this helped when they failed, but wanted to bring back some bolts instead. But back to new players, I am more helpful for there first level. After that there on there own.
He is not new to society play.
Hell, I was going to allow him bring back the poisoned bolts if he simply looked at them. I have been lenient on faction missions in the past via the creative solutions rule and my own never let the mechanics get in the way of a good story rule. But this guy, I just could not in good conscious give him any Prestige.
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sounds like you made the right call the first time, no prestige points. it is the players responsibility to try to complete there faction missions. if they just sit there, than they fail. Now if this is a new player than I think we need to help them. Like the first one, I told my player that he would need to do a heal skill check. course this helped when they failed, but wanted to bring back some bolts instead. But back to new players, I am more helpful for there first level. After that there on there own.He is not new to society play.
Hell, I was going to allow him bring back the poisoned bolts if he simply looked at them. I have been lenient on faction missions in the past via the creative solutions rule and my own never let the mechanics get in the way of a good story rule. But this guy, I just could not in good conscious give him any Prestige.
According to the rules about season one scenarios, one of the two-part faction missions is to be treated as the scenario PA and one as faction PA. In this case, not performing any of the faction missions is enough to keep him from receiving any PA.
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I've never seen a player not try their faction mission. Usually the players at my table have forgotten the main mission in their mad rush to ask me if there's a strange set of runes on THIS particular wall.
That is usually the case whenever I GM or play, but I did have one player that didn't even bother to look at the faction mission sheet. He luckily had another player of the same faction, so he got prestige. But I kinda wish he didn't so he'd be punished, since the only time he was concerned about the faction missions were when the chronicle sheets were being handed out and he said "oh wait, wasn't I suppose to do a faction thingy?"
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That is usually the case whenever I GM or play, but I did have one player that didn't even bother to look at the faction mission sheet. He luckily had another player of the same faction, so he got prestige.
Why do we allow this? The concept of Fame/Prestige is that your PC is doing something remarkable or at least semi-impressive to make a name for themselves. Why would a non-participant get to reap the rewards? Does the 3rd string quarterback get any recognition for having rode the pine on the superbowl winning team? I'd say no. Hell, Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl as a starter and most scoff and say it was in spite of him.
In any case, IMO, if a GM believes that one of characters is just riding the coat-tails of another character, s/he should have the power to deny the prestige. I'm not saying punish character/s because they failed to take a rank in a trained-only skill, but do something, anything to work as a team to resolve the mission and support the character that eventually makes the check.
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I agree completely, Bob. But unfortunately, until it's in the rules that a GM can do something like that, each player of a faction gets credit as long as the mission is complete. It's a very handy rule when you need something like Knowledge (engineering), and only one player has it. But it can be abused by lazy players. =/
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On the other hand, It's sometimes hard as hell to get a faction mission done as the module dictates. Just recently, my (and another table-mate's) required us to ingratiate ourselves with a local, tribe of centaurs (tien setting) but the only encounter we had with them was a ranged battle from the deck of our ship to the shore(and some distance away forcing range penalties). The four members of our party tried parley, but the centaurs only knew the specific regional dialect of the province.
At no point are we presented with an option to even smooth over initial hostilities, and for all intensive purposes, we didn't dare leave the boat/river. Move on, Miss chance, No Award.
As well, My particular mission read as a two-parter, And I spent each encounter saying "My character scans the skies, hoping to sight the Sky People's legendary citadel." And getting completely ignored. I don't think it was even part of the faction mission, and/or the gm took it as general chatter, not an attempt to get that finished.
As far as rule's go, I am 100% behind not awarding PA because no specific actions were taken to do so. It sounds likely that he was chatting other players up and missed his chances, which ties into his complaint about you pushing the game along, which you must do.
Anyways, they have to play another module to recoup the award? Big punishment :P
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Leg of Lamb
If there ever was a clear zero PA award then this was a clear one. PA is not automatic.
I certainly belong to the generous kind of GMs allowing a lot but just a few month ago I faced myself also with the zero PA question. The difference - it was actually zero PA for anyone.
3 players (plus 1 NPC/Ezren), three factions. Each of the players failed there first mission in different ways. They muddle through to the last encounter. They locate the item to grant them one PA each. season 2, 3 different missions but all have in common that the BBE is defeated first.
The fight goes badly. I offer the group the option to forfeit the PA and live (run and admit defeat) or take their chance. At my reckoning they would have needed something close to a miracle - like some criticals while I botch.
The group decided to run.
It did feel weird to fill out the reporting and fill in zero PA overall for a complete game. But PA only make sense if choices have consequences. The player where okay with it. They got out alive and knew they had been over their head with this scenario.
As GM you learn - zero PA do happen. It will get less likely with the new rules - but it my case this wouldn't have changed anything. The group missed the overall mission.
On the other hand I had to congratulate my group to taking the right choice. A TPK would have been the worse alternative. I roll in the open and I would not have softballed it.
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The PC should not have gotten any prestige. You shouldn't have gone back and given him a pity prestige point. You have to "earn" prestige, it's not a given.
I did that scenario on my Taldor PC and the missions were very simple. Your DMing style wouldn't have impacted either mission, they were very simple.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Technically, if it is a season 0 through 2 scenario that has two faction missions, then both faction missions must be completed to get the prestige. In this case, you don't get anything if you only complete the main mission.
Andrew, I assume you mean to say "...then either or both the faction missions..."
A PC who completes one of his faction missions still receives 1 Fame.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Season 2 Scenario... say #2-01.
Overall mission, do AA.
Faction missions, get BB, do CC.1) The party did AA, player did BB and CC. (this one is easy, 2PP awarded)
2) The party did AA, player did BB, but not CC.
3) The party did AA, player does not do BB or CC.
4) The party did not do AA, player did BB and CC.
5) The party did not do AA, player did BB but not CC.
6) The party did not do AA, player did not do BB or CC. (this one is easy too, 0 PP awarded).
1) 2PP
2) 1PP3) 0PP
4) 2PP
5) 1PP
6) 0PP
Jiggy's is the correct one, regardless of the awkward wording in the Guide and regardless of how other GMs are misinterpreting the rule. If the scenario only has one faction mission, you get a PP from completing the scenario. If the scenario has two faction missions, you get no PP just for completing the scenario.
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Would the PC get the XP then?
If memory serves (and I could be wrong, as I've never had a situation where I needed to verify this), most scenarios have text at the end (in or near the "Conclusion" section) saying what's required to be considered to have completed the scenarios.
For instance, I did take special note that First Steps Part 3 only requires that you get to the meeting at the end, not that you
So if Penumbral Accords' success conditions don't involve fighting the BBEG, then you're set.
Well, the way I thought the rule for XP worked was to complete at least three of the encounters and you got the XP for the scenario, and that this applied whether the character died or time ran out or the player had to leave early, etc. So in a Season One or Two scenario, you could make it through three encounters, do your two faction missions, and then leave the table and get your full PP and XP. You would just be short on the gold reward and on what would be available to buy from your chronicle sheet. I would hope no one would ever do this intentionally, as to me that would violate the "don't be a jerk" rule, but in general this is legal for a player to do.
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Enevhar has the right of it. You only need to complete 3 encounters to get XP for a scenario. The faction missions are side notes, and can be completed before this, and the player can bail if they so choose. The rest of Enevhar is spot on too, as I would consider this to violate the don't be a jerk rule to bail on the rest of your team midway through a session.
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in effect this would mean your character could walk out of #2-11 The Penumbral Accords before the BBE fight? walk in, find faction mission A, find faction mission B, walk out of scenario - leaving any other party members there? And get 2 PP? wow... that would be cold. Would the PC get the XP then?
I don't know that scenario, but that sounds accurate: they'd get 2 PP and 1 XP. Bear in mind that the PC that walked out would miss out on any gold awarded for the final encounter.
Situations like the one above are probably part of the reason the arrangements were changed for season 3.
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in effect this would mean your character could walk out of #2-11 The Penumbral Accords before the BBE fight? walk in, find faction mission A, find faction mission B, walk out of scenario - leaving any other party members there? And get 2 PP? wow... that would be cold. Would the PC get the XP then?I don't know that scenario, but that sounds accurate: they'd get 2 PP and 1 XP. Bear in mind that the PC that walked out would miss out on any gold awarded for the final encounter.
Situations like the one above are probably part of the reason the arrangements were changed for season 3.
I used the example of #2-11 'cause you can Meta-game the game when you walk in. Really it's kind of hard not to, as your characters have been there before, you know the basic layout of the building and can guess where the final encounter is. Many players even say something like...." we'll do Door A then B and save C till the end, 'cause that's where the final fight is."
I seem to recall that when I played, all the factions missions had been finished before we went into the last fight...
That is a very linear sceanrio (series) though.
In most cases you can't really metagame where the faction missions are going to be. And if people are metagaming where faction missions are going to be, it would make me really consider checking their chronicles to see if they've played it before. Granted the caveat to that is I can't know that they didn't read it before hand.
All that being said, one would like to assume that we're all adult enough to not be a complete jerk about the faction mission and see the entire mission through to the end.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It is my experience that a great deal of the loot in a scenario comes as a result of vanquishing the main opposition in the adventure. So, if you survive three encounters you get an experience point. If you fulfill both faction missions (in late Season 0, Season 1 and Season 2), you get 2 points of Fame. And you get treasure as the individual encounters indicate.
Sometimes, it is a wise explorer who sees that the team is outmatched by the threat level of the opposition and returns to the grand lodge, unsuccessful but alive.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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in effect this would mean your character could walk out of #2-11 The Penumbral Accords before the BBE fight? walk in, find faction mission A, find faction mission B, walk out of scenario - leaving any other party members there? And get 2 PP? wow... that would be cold. Would the PC get the XP then?I don't know that scenario, but that sounds accurate: they'd get 2 PP and 1 XP. Bear in mind that the PC that walked out would miss out on any gold awarded for the final encounter.
Situations like the one above are probably part of the reason the arrangements were changed for season 3.
I used the example of #2-11 'cause you can Meta-game the game when you walk in. Really it's kind of hard not to, as your characters have been there before, you know the basic layout of the building and can guess where the final encounter is. Many players even say something like...." we'll do Door A then B and save C till the end, 'cause that's where the final fight is."
I seem to recall that when I played, all the factions missions had been finished before we went into the last fight...
Yeah, it could be possible, of course there are often faction missions that can only be completed after/during the final encounter too. Same scenario has one or two I believe.
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I don't know that scenario, but that sounds accurate: they'd get 2 PP and 1 XP. Bear in mind that the PC that walked out would miss out on any gold awarded for the final encounter.
+1
but this makes the VC briefings at the start of the scenarios kind of... well, even more "window dressing". Esp. if there are 3 or more members of the same faction at a table (or the same two "allied" factions like (Shadow Lodge and Chel.).
wow... faction wars stuff gets even worse.
It's just how season 1+2 scenarios get converted. I would have preferred to ignore one of the missions in season 1/2 and have a PP for the overall mission, but "oh well".
I suppose you could play all season 3/4 scenarios in the future.
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Thanks for the replies, everyone.
We have determined the player will receive zero prestige.
While I understand the frustration of a player not getting involved and I would love to penalize players for not participating, I feel that the guide to OP is quite clear:
In each scenario you have the opportunity to earn up to 2 Prestige Points, 1 for achieving the overall scenario mission and 1 for achieving your faction mission.
Back in Season 1 and 2 this was not the case, and so there were always two faction missions. With the season 3 change, my interpretation of the rule is that we now we have to adapt season 1 and 2 PP outcomes. You get 1 PP for successfully completing the scenario mission regardless of season (in your case, obtaining the Rat), and 1 PP for completing the faction mission (or in the case of season 1 or 2, either faction mission). Since the player did finish the mission successfully, he should get 1 PA. He should lose out on the PA for not participating in either faction mission though.
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Thanks for the replies, everyone.
We have determined the player will receive zero prestige.
While I understand the frustration of a player not getting involved and I would love to penalize players for not participating, I feel that the guide to OP is quite clear:
In each scenario you have the opportunity to earn up to 2 Prestige Points, 1 for achieving the overall scenario mission and 1 for achieving your faction mission.Back in Season 1 and 2 this was not the case, and so there were always two faction missions. With the season 3 change, my interpretation of the rule is that we now we have to adapt season 1 and 2 PP outcomes. You get 1 PP for successfully completing the scenario mission regardless of season (in your case, obtaining the Rat), and 1 PP for completing the faction mission (or in the case of season 1 or 2, either faction mission). Since the player did finish the mission successfully, he should get 1 PA. He should lose out on the PA for not participating in either faction mission though.
However, this is modified later in the Guide to OP (pg. 26) for older scenarios (i.e. before season 3). This is a season 1 scenario being discussed, so:
Seasons 1 and 2 (Scenarios #29–#56 and #2–01 through
#2–26): These scenarios all include two faction missions.
For characters using the standard advancement track,
one of these should be considered the faction mission
and the other the success condition for the scenario,
maintaining the 2 Prestige Point maximum.
So, the overall mission given by the VC in these scenarios are NOT the overall success condition for the scenario. The overall success scenario will vary by faction, depending on the faction missions for the specific scenario.
Just getting what the VC wants isn't guaranteed to be good enough for anything, as things currently stand. nosig and Jiggy had a good summation of this upthread a little ways giving 7 or so variations on what could happen.
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I always award 1 prestige point if the main mission was achieved.
Regardless if a player was a fly on the wall, they were part of the group and they get the point.
Faction missions are treated separately. If they do nothing to achieve the mission, they don't get a point.
If there was another player of the same faction in the group, and that player achieves the mission, I would award ALL faction members the point. Why? Because the faction leaders would not differentiate between who actually fulfilled the mission. Only the success of the mission is important.
Now, I have had players who have actively refused to do their faction mission (usually for RP reasons). I discuss with them the consequences, and in this case, even if there are other faction members in the group, the refusing player will not receive a faction mission point. Why? Because they are actively against the mission (rather than passively against) and in RP terms will speak out about the mission. Thus their prestige and reputation will be slightly damaged. Hence, no prestige point.
The important point here is that I discuss the consequences with the player and we agree on the end result.
Cheers
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However, this is modified later in the Guide to OP (pg. 26) for older scenarios (i.e. before season 3). This is a season 1 scenario being discussed, so:
Seasons 1 and 2 (Scenarios #29–#56 and #2–01 through
#2–26): These scenarios all include two faction missions.
For characters using the standard advancement track,
one of these should be considered the faction mission
and the other the success condition for the scenario,
maintaining the 2 Prestige Point maximum.So, the overall mission given by the VC in these scenarios are NOT the overall success condition for the scenario. The overall success scenario will vary by faction, depending on the faction missions for the specific scenario.
Just getting what the VC wants isn't guaranteed to be good enough for anything, as things currently stand. nosig and Jiggy had a good summation of this upthread a...
I stand corrected. I thought I saw that in the previous guide, but I couldmt find it in the current one.
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Clearly people are still confused about how Faction Points are awarded in older then Season 3 scenarios.
I Pointed this out in the Changes for Guide 4.2 thread. and made a recommended change to the wording.