Magic Item Creation

[Anced_Math]

I have a player who wants to create a whip that deals shocking grasp damage on a successful hit. She already has a masterwork whip. Since there isn't much reason to add +1 to the weapon damage she wants to make it using the wonderius item rules. It makes for a cheaper and more powerful weapon. A +1 shocking whip with 1D6 electric damage is 8,000 gp. A masterwork whip with +1 to hit and a 3rd lvl shocking grasp spell continuously active (doing 3d6 electrical dam) would only be 6,000 gp. It is certainly gaming the system, but I cant see that it is wrong. She is giving io the +1 on damage, though that will have little effect on game play. Thoughts?

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Anced_Math wrote:

I have a player who wants to create a whip that deals shocking grasp damage on a successful hit. She already has a masterwork whip. Since there isn't much reason to add +1 to the weapon damage she wants to make it using the wonderius item rules. It makes for a cheaper and more powerful weapon. A +1 shocking whip with 1D6 electric damage is 8,000 gp. A masterwork whip with +1 to hit and a 3rd lvl shocking grasp spell continuously active (doing 3d6 electrical dam) would only be 6,000 gp. It is certainly gaming the system, but I cant see that it is wrong. She is giving io the +1 on damage, though that will have little effect on game play. Thoughts?

Have to use the Magic weapon rules. At best she has a +1 spell storing (shocking grasp) whip.

She'd be better to make a +1 shocking whip (cost of a +2 item).

[Name Violation]

if its a wonderous item of shocking grasp, look a wand rules maybe?

[Cheapy]

If it's a weapon, you make it with the magic weapon rules.

If it's a wand, you use the wand rules.

You do not use whatever is the cheapest for the player; that's cheese of the stinkiest order.

[Anced_Math]

Cheapy wrote:

If it's a weapon, you make it with the magic weapon rules.

If it's a wand, you use the wand rules.

You do not use whatever is the cheapest for the player; that's cheese of the stinkiest order. [/QUOand

Thanks for the responses.

I understand that if she enchants it as weapon, it uses the weapon rules. And I understand that it should generally follow those. But it wouldn't work with a sword, ss the player would want the additional damage. She is looking to use it as a spell delivery vehicle.

As it isn't a magic weapon she wont have the additional hardness and hit points. I think I sm going to allow it as it follow both logic and the rules. However, following logic and the rules, sunder is her enemy. She may find that people try to cut the whip in half. If they do, then nexttime she might want to spend ghd extra gold. ; )

I prefer not to tell them they cant, I am just going toshow her she shouldn't.

[pres man]

Shocking grasp is a touch spell, as such is it discharged once a touch has been made. In this case, continuous does not make sense. Instead it should be unlimited use. Thus the character would have to spend a round activating the spell on the item. Then the next round they could make a single touch attack with the spell. Any other attacks that round would not benefit from the spell. Thus at best the character could benefit only once every other round from the spell.

Still the more conservative viewpoint would be to compare the effect to another magical item already allowed by the rules. This effect would seem to compare to a +1 shocking shocking shocking whip, thus a +4 weapon cost of 32,000 gp.

[Name Violation]

pres man wrote:

Shocking grasp is a touch spell, as such is it discharged once a touch has been made. In this case, continuous does not make sense. Instead it should be unlimited use. Thus the character would have to spend a round activating the spell on the item. Then the next round they could make a single touch attack with the spell. Any other attacks that round would not benefit from the spell. Thus at best the character could benefit only once every other round from the spell.

Still the more conservative viewpoint would be to compare the effect to another magical item already allowed by the rules. This effect would seem to compare to a +1 shocking shocking shocking whip, thus a +4 weapon cost of 32,000 gp.

you can make a touch attack in the same round you cast, so you could spam it once a round

[Name Violation]

some items you just have to say no to, as they break the system. like an item of truestrike (or quickened truestrike)

[pres man]

Name Violation wrote:

pres man wrote:

Shocking grasp is a touch spell, as such is it discharged once a touch has been made. In this case, continuous does not make sense. Instead it should be unlimited use. Thus the character would have to spend a round activating the spell on the item. Then the next round they could make a single touch attack with the spell. Any other attacks that round would not benefit from the spell. Thus at best the character could benefit only once every other round from the spell.

Still the more conservative viewpoint would be to compare the effect to another magical item already allowed by the rules. This effect would seem to compare to a +1 shocking shocking shocking whip, thus a +4 weapon cost of 32,000 gp.

you can make a touch attack in the same round you cast, so you could spam it once a round

Even in the best case, you'd still only be able to use it once per round in that case.

[Jarleth]

An enchanted whip is a magic weapon no matter how you slice it. It requires using the magic weapon rules. A shocking whip would give you a continuous shocking effect for the previously mentioned 8000 gp.
Also activating a magic item is a standard action so I don't think you could activate a shocking grasp and then attack more than once.

[Celtic Dragonlord]

I believe the critical wording is "on a successful strike". In that case, you'd need to use the weapon rules (perhaps similarly to the Flame Tongue ability?)

If it was simply as a delivery for the spell, then technically you could get away with using Wondrous Item rules. It's an object, just like a rock, a glove, or a wondrous orb. It wouldn't matter about hitting them with it like a whip (although it would be good for flavor) in that case.

And in that case, it would be a "use-activated" item, useable limitless times per day, with no body slot. Useable once per round as a standard action, as if casting the spell itself (without provoking AoO's). This would cost 4000 GP (level 1 spell x level 1 caster x 2000 GP, x2 for no space limitation), plus the cost of the masterwork whip. For more damage, she could create it at a higher caster level.

Since Shocking Grasp is instantaneous, it cannot be used (as per the basic rules) as "continuous".

So basically, there ARE ways to do it both ways, but it depends on the desired effect.

[Jerry Wright 307]

Jarleth wrote:

Also activating a magic item is a standard action so I don't think you could activate a shocking grasp and then attack more than once.

Unless it's use-activated, which is one of the options under magic items. Magical weapons are use-activated.

[Valcili]

you cannot make a whip of shocking grasp, it is a weapon so you you're suppose to make it under the weapons creation rules.

1st off needs to be 5th level for the proficiency

a weapon must have at least one enhancement bonus to receive any other special abilities (along with being masterwork) and at least 3 times the level of the enhancement to be placed on the weapon.

So technically the creator will be making a +1 shock weapon, if they want extra damage (approved by the GM) then it would best be accomplished as "Pres Man" said they would have to make a +1 shock, shock weapon making it a +3 magic weapon requiring the creator to be 5th level, with a crafting cost of 9K, This would create a +1 greater shock whip doing 2d6 additional electricity damage on a successful hit.

I personally would make it more expensive, and say for each additional d6 added another +1 is required, so for a +2d6 shock you would have to have a +3 enhancement bonus, making it a +6 magic weapon @36k crafting cost, and minimum level 9.

I understand what they are trying to accomplish but disagree at making weapons more powerful at cheaper prices granting accessibility at lower levels. it creates an abusive game.

The best argument is "you're not the first to learn to make more powerful for cheaper, and now you will be on the receiving end." prepare to defend against this orcs +5 hastened blade of harm!!!! 1d6+40 points of negative energy damage!!!!!

[Jerry Wright 307]

A whip of shocking grasp doesn't have to be made as a magic weapon. You just have to do the following to determine cost:

Whip = 301 gp (1 gp + 300gp for masterwork)
Shocking grasp spell, single-use, use-activated = 250 gp (spell level 1 x caster level 5 x 50 gp)
Unlimited charges = 5000 gp (250 gp divided by (5 divided by 100 charges = .05)) [unlimited use item cost is determined as if it has 100 charges per day]

Total cost for whip of shocking grasp = 5301 gp. (250 gold for spell already figured into charges cost.)

The whip is not a "magic weapon". It casts a 5d6 shocking grasp every time you strike with it.

Note that the use of shocking grasp is a standard action, so that a character with multiple attacks can only attack once in a round with the shocking grasp damage.

Because it is a weapon, you can add any weapon enchantments you want, but that will raise the cost, and will be a separate part of the magical process.

[Valcili]

a whip is a weapon not an item, there for it does have to be made as a magic weapon:
"A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once." (Directly from the book)
automatic 1K minimum just to craft a magic weapon
_____

Jerry Wright 307 wrote:

Whip = 301 gp (1 gp + 300gp for masterwork)

Shocking grasp spell, single-use, use-activated = 250 gp (spell level 1 x caster level 5 x 50 gp)
Unlimited charges = 5000 gp (250 gp divided by (5 divided by 100 charges = .05)) [unlimited use item cost is determined as if it has 100 charges per day

This is incorrect single use is as it states single use, once use it no longer has its magical properties IE potion of cure light wounds.

charge per day is Use-activated Spell level (1) x caster level (5)x 2,000 gp. = 10000
(so if you divided by 100 charges it would be 200K for the item (this is not a necessary step for a low level item)
the only way you could keep it at a 5K create cost is to craft glove of shocking grasp, it would be the same as a whip only it a glove and you don't get the reach of a whip.
If this is the case spend a little extra cash later on and add spectral hand. 6K later and you can cast a 5d6 shocking grasp once a round up to 130ft away.