RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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You can't pickpocket in combat if the creature is aware of your presence: "You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence." Ok, got it.
But by blowing two feats (one for each of us), my buddy rogue and I can get Team Pickpocketing, and if one of us feints, the other can steal something from him, but only if said stealer is invisible or otherwise undetectable?
I feel like this isn't how the feat is supposed to work; rather, I would think it supersedes the previous general rule text for sleight of hand: Enabling you to use it if the person is aware of you. That would make sense to me, but nothing I can find in the RAW backs me up.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Further sleight of hand discoveries. The cutpurse rogue archetype has an ability called Snatch and Grab. As a full round action, when making a sneak attack, make a sleight of hand to steal as well - provided the attack hits. Can this be used if the target is aware of you but you have flanking or the target is otherwise denied dex to AC? Also, it states that you can use the ability during the surprise round, provided the target has yet to act. However, Snatch and Grab is a full round action, how do you pull that off in a surprise round?
But by blowing two feats (one for each of us), my buddy rogue and I can get Team Pickpocketing, and if one of us feints, the other can steal something from him, but only if said stealer is invisible or otherwise undetectable?
The feat says that you can steal something from him, if your ally suceeds at his feint. I would definately say that it overrides the general requirement that you need to be undetected.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Why aren't you using Steal?
The rogue could, but the question is why is there all of this "use pickpocketing in combat" material, even in things printed after Steal was introduced (like Team Pickpocketing), if you're unable to really pickpocket in combat?
EDIT: Thanks for the info, though, I'll pass it on to my player that's making the thief.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The feat says that you can steal something from him, if your ally suceeds at his feint. I would definately say that it overrides the general requirement that you need to be undetected.
But by blowing two feats (one for each of us), my buddy rogue and I can get Team Pickpocketing, and if one of us feints, the other can steal something from him, but only if said stealer is invisible or otherwise undetectable?
So that would mean that the Snatch and Grab via cutpurse overrides as well? That being the case, what do you make of the line regarding surprise rounds? Is it trying to say that you can make it as a standard action instead of a full-round action during a surprise round? Even though it doesn't?
So that would mean that the Snatch and Grab via cutpurse overrides as well? That being the case, what do you make of the line regarding surprise rounds? Is it trying to say that you can make it as a standard action instead of a full-round action during a surprise round? Even though it doesn't?The feat says that you can steal something from him, if your ally suceeds at his feint. I would definately say that it overrides the general requirement that you need to be undetected.
But by blowing two feats (one for each of us), my buddy rogue and I can get Team Pickpocketing, and if one of us feints, the other can steal something from him, but only if said stealer is invisible or otherwise undetectable?
I think the wording is terrible regarding surprise rounds.
As I read it you have two possiblities (although one is impossible...):A) Full round action: Make an attack, IF you deal sneak attack damage, THEN make a sleight of hands check.
B) Full round action in suprise round (???): Even if you doesn't deal sneak attack damage, then make a sleight of hands check to steal something.
Given that B can't be done, I'd say doing it as a standard action is a fair fix.
Why aren't you using Steal?The rogue could, but the question is why is there all of this "use pickpocketing in combat" material, even in things printed after Steal was introduced (like Team Pickpocketing), if you're unable to really pickpocket in combat?
EDIT: Thanks for the info, though, I'll pass it on to my player that's making the thief.
You are both right that is a bit strange to have two mechanics to do the same thing. However I think many rogue types are better off making a dc 20 sleight of hands check than a CMB check.
Why aren't you using Steal?
Because rogues are supposed to be good at stealing, but Steal uses CMB, which a rogue sucks at?
I really hate steal as a combat maneuver (and Dirty Trick, to a lesser extent). They should have just expanded the rules for Sleight of Hand, it's hardly a powerful skill anyway...
Ok try this.
Take Sleight of Hand (SoH) skill.
Out of combat: Works as normal.
In combat:
Is the enemy flatfooted, unaware of you (such as invisibility), or unable to move at all (paralyzed)?
Yes: Use normal SoH DCs to steal, versus Perception for other to notice you doing it but not prevent it from happening.
No: Use SoH rules as normal, however, you must both beat the DC to steal the item and win the opposed skill check. If you fail, your foe notices your attempt and prevents it from happening.
There. Done.
They're doing similar, but not the same thing. See my earlier post.
Actually they are very much a like since Greater Steal makes you able to steal things without being noticed.
In my opinion it is a bit too similar to warrant two mechanics, but on the other hand Team Pickpocket makes up for the fact that the Steal maneuver isn't really a thief's game.Ultimately however I cannot help to feel that the team approach is a much better choice, since you can do it using 1 move action + 1 immediate action, compared to the standard action for the maneuver. While that in total costs a feat more than the steal feat line, it allow an extra standard action between two characters.
Steal maneuver can be used by characters that don't have SoH and/or good Dex.
Have you ever considered that maybe people who are not dexterous and have no training in pickpocketing SHOULD NOT be good at stealing? Just maybe...
There's already a BAB/CMB-based mechanic for using your strength to PRY something from a creature forcefully. It's called Disarm.