How many scrolls can fit in a scroll case?
Advanced Player's Guide:
Scroll Case: "A leather or wooden scroll case easily holds four scrolls; you can cram more inside but retrieving any of them becomes a full-round action rather than a move action. You must destroy the scroll case to damage its contents (hardness 2 for leather or 5 for wood, 2 hit points, Break DC 15). A scroll case is not water-tight."
Also you can get more than one spell on a scroll, by extended the length by a foot.
Given how rarely items are required to make saving throws the practical value of a scroll case is minimal. I would therefore say that common sense should rule - three or four sounds reasonable. To avoid shuffling through a character may choose to just keep one scroll in each scroll case, the case could then be clearly labelled so that the correct scroll can be laid hands on straight away and preventing casting "circle of death" when you were intending "circle of protection, evil".
This seems like needless micromanaging to me. Is a caster supposed to carry a half dozen scroll cases strapped to his belt merely to keep his full collection at hand? IMC, one scroll case can effectively carry as many scrolls as you'd care to put in it.
Besides, who can be expected to know to look for the answer in a secondary non-core book?
Personally, I would up the number to 6. It's a reasonable compromise that allows for a decent number of scrolls to be readily available without a lot of micromanagement but it doesn't overstretch practical limitations such a case would likely have.
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Well, this is for a Pathfinder Society character, so I have to go by RAW. My gnome sorcerer dumped str down to 7, so encumbrance could be an issue if any GM actually decides to check. That's why I was worried that I could only fit 1 scroll per case, which could get heavy, since I'm already planning to buy about a dozen scrolls of 1st level spells at level 1. With 4 scrolls per case, encumbrance shouldn't be an issue, at least not before I can afford a Handy Haversack.
I was mostly concerned with protecting my scrolls from water damage if I end up going swimming at some point (with my big -2 swim skill from dumped strength). But now that I read the description in the Advanced Players Guide, it says that scroll cases aren't water proof, which leaves me a little worried. And yeah, it is weird that this is covered in the APG even though the item is listed in the Core Rulebook. though I do consider the APG to be a "core" book.
So the next obvious question is how much water exposure can a magic scroll take and still be readable?
If this were olde-skool where I could just make a ruling at the table and be done with it I would rule that a scroll case could carry up to 10 scrolls together... *but* that when pulling scrolls out of the case, if you have stored a number of scrolls in the case greater than your INT bonus, it takes that number of standard or move actions equal to the excess to retrieve the correct scroll (i.e. your ability to organize and identify the correct one).
Example: You have 6 scrolls in your case, and an INT +3, it will take you three standard or move actions to retrieve it (6 scrolls - +3)... you could spend a full round for two actions and a move action on the second round.
If someone wants to use this as their house-rule, you are welcome to it- but I am curious what an official ruling would be.
I'm thinking Tupperware has to come from the fey, so it should exist in PFS, right?
Everyone knows that Tupperware is Abyssal in origin; they keep souls fresh! Tupperware parties are also the torment du jour in the nether realms.
I thought retrieving any stored item was a move action. Why bother with scroll cases at all?
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Well, this is for a Pathfinder Society character, so I have to go by RAW. My gnome sorcerer dumped str down to 7, so encumbrance could be an issue if any GM actually decides to check.
Whether GMs check your encumbrance is secondary to you checking your encumbrance. :)
As for why bother with scroll cases at all, they do provide some protection from the elements (think fire), but this comes up so rarely that a character can ignore them until such a time as the player gets really annoyed at the ashy pile of that-which-used-to-be-gold. The human mind has the unfortunate capacity to discount events that are highly unlikely but which have major consequences in the event that they do take place.
Handy Haversack FTW? (quick easy access to many scrolls, possibly water-proof because it's extra dimensional space)
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Handy Haversack FTW? (quick easy access to many scrolls, possibly water-proof because it's extra dimensional space)
Yup. That was already my long term plan. I'm just trying to figure out what to do until reaching the necessary money/fame to buy one. At level 1, the character's already buying a dozen scrolls with the riches from last weekend's adventures, but it'll be two or three levels before he can get the haversack.
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How many scrolls can fit in a scroll case?Advanced Player's Guide:
Scroll Case: "A leather or wooden scroll case easily holds four scrolls; you can cram more inside but retrieving any of them becomes a full-round action rather than a move action. You must destroy the scroll case to damage its contents (hardness 2 for leather or 5 for wood, 2 hit points, Break DC 15). A scroll case is not water-tight."
Also you can get more than one spell on a scroll, by extended the length by a foot.
So, I could have 4 scrolls, each with 15 spells on it in 1 scroll case?
Handy Haversack FTW? (quick easy access to many scrolls, possibly water-proof because it's extra dimensional space)Yup. That was already my long term plan. I'm just trying to figure out what to do until reaching the necessary money/fame to buy one. At level 1, the character's already buying a dozen scrolls with the riches from last weekend's adventures, but it'll be two or three levels before he can get the haversack.
Ok, how about this then... get a giant top hat (human sized). Cut the top of it out. Find the tallest human/elf/half-orc in the group... ride on their shoulders, place all your scrolls rolled up in the top-hat, place top-hat on their head... also buy your new "mount" some hip waders. :-D
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Ok, how about this then... get a giant top hat (human sized). Cut the top of it out. Find the tallest human/elf/half-orc in the group... ride on their shoulders, place all your scrolls rolled up in the top-hat, place top-hat on their head... also buy your new "mount" some hip waders. :-DHandy Haversack FTW? (quick easy access to many scrolls, possibly water-proof because it's extra dimensional space)Yup. That was already my long term plan. I'm just trying to figure out what to do until reaching the necessary money/fame to buy one. At level 1, the character's already buying a dozen scrolls with the riches from last weekend's adventures, but it'll be two or three levels before he can get the haversack.
I think I'd rather just go with the Tupperware.
Well, this is for a Pathfinder Society character, so I have to go by RAW. My gnome sorcerer dumped str down to 7, so encumbrance could be an issue if any GM actually decides to check.Whether GMs check your encumbrance is secondary to you checking your encumbrance. :)
As for why bother with scroll cases at all, they do provide some protection from the elements (think fire), but this comes up so rarely that a character can ignore them until such a time as the player gets really annoyed at the ashy pile of that-which-used-to-be-gold. The human mind has the unfortunate capacity to discount events that are highly unlikely but which have major consequences in the event that they do take place.
One definitely should look to protecting one's supplies, but does a regular backpack or, say, a larger wooden box in that backpack offer less protection? Basically, couldn't we use something larger so we don't have to micromanage scroll cases and the like? Some of us get bored quickly thinking about which pouch my feather token is in, et al.
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One definitely should look to protecting one's supplies, but does a regular backpack or, say, a larger wooden box in that backpack offer less protection? Basically, couldn't we use something larger so we don't have to micromanage scroll cases and the like? Some of us get bored quickly thinking about which pouch my feather token is in, et al.Well, this is for a Pathfinder Society character, so I have to go by RAW. My gnome sorcerer dumped str down to 7, so encumbrance could be an issue if any GM actually decides to check.Whether GMs check your encumbrance is secondary to you checking your encumbrance. :)
As for why bother with scroll cases at all, they do provide some protection from the elements (think fire), but this comes up so rarely that a character can ignore them until such a time as the player gets really annoyed at the ashy pile of that-which-used-to-be-gold. The human mind has the unfortunate capacity to discount events that are highly unlikely but which have major consequences in the event that they do take place.
The character's a sorcerer. He doesn't need weapons on his belt, but he does need quick access to his scrolls, so scroll cases work as a way to strap them to the belt, instead of keeping them in the backpack.
The character's a sorcerer. He doesn't need weapons on his belt, but he does need quick access to his scrolls, so scroll cases work as a way to strap them to the belt, instead of keeping them in the backpack.One definitely should look to protecting one's supplies, but does a regular backpack or, say, a larger wooden box in that backpack offer less protection? Basically, couldn't we use something larger so we don't have to micromanage scroll cases and the like? Some of us get bored quickly thinking about which pouch my feather token is in, et al.Well, this is for a Pathfinder Society character, so I have to go by RAW. My gnome sorcerer dumped str down to 7, so encumbrance could be an issue if any GM actually decides to check.Whether GMs check your encumbrance is secondary to you checking your encumbrance. :)
As for why bother with scroll cases at all, they do provide some protection from the elements (think fire), but this comes up so rarely that a character can ignore them until such a time as the player gets really annoyed at the ashy pile of that-which-used-to-be-gold. The human mind has the unfortunate capacity to discount events that are highly unlikely but which have major consequences in the event that they do take place.
That makes sense logically, but mechanically, is there a difference? It takes just as long (a move action) to grab something from the bottom of his backpack as it does to grab it from its loosely-attached place on his belt--unless I've missed a rule somewhere--and both provoke an attack of opportunity.
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That makes sense logically, but mechanically, is there a difference? It takes just as long (a move action) to grab something from the bottom of his backpack as it does to grab it from its loosely-attached place on his belt--unless I've missed a rule somewhere--and both provoke an attack of opportunity.The character's a sorcerer. He doesn't need weapons on his belt, but he does need quick access to his scrolls, so scroll cases work as a way to strap them to the belt, instead of keeping them in the backpack.One definitely should look to protecting one's supplies, but does a regular backpack or, say, a larger wooden box in that backpack offer less protection? Basically, couldn't we use something larger so we don't have to micromanage scroll cases and the like? Some of us get bored quickly thinking about which pouch my feather token is in, et al.Well, this is for a Pathfinder Society character, so I have to go by RAW. My gnome sorcerer dumped str down to 7, so encumbrance could be an issue if any GM actually decides to check.Whether GMs check your encumbrance is secondary to you checking your encumbrance. :)
As for why bother with scroll cases at all, they do provide some protection from the elements (think fire), but this comes up so rarely that a character can ignore them until such a time as the player gets really annoyed at the ashy pile of that-which-used-to-be-gold. The human mind has the unfortunate capacity to discount events that are highly unlikely but which have major consequences in the event that they do take place.
Retrieving something from your belt counts as drawing a weapon, which is easier than retrieving something from a pack. They're both move actions, but drawing weapons doesn't provoke, and can be done as a free action while moving if your BAB is +1 or higher.
Retrieving something from your belt counts as drawing a weapon, which is easier than retrieving something from a pack. They're both move actions, but drawing weapons doesn't provoke, and can be done as a free action while moving if your BAB is +1 or higher.
Oh yeah. So if the scroll case is in your belt, does that act of removing the scroll from the case mean you're no longer merely drawing a weapon but retrieving a stored item? If so, I may houserule that all adventuring scroll cases are crafted for quick-release, as this seems to be the intent.
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Retrieving something from your belt counts as drawing a weapon, which is easier than retrieving something from a pack. They're both move actions, but drawing weapons doesn't provoke, and can be done as a free action while moving if your BAB is +1 or higher.Oh yeah. So if the scroll case is in your belt, does that act of removing the scroll from the case mean you're no longer merely drawing a weapon but retrieving a stored item? If so, I may houserule that all adventuring scroll cases are crafted for quick-release, as this seems to be the intent.
That's a good question. Popping the cork on a potion is generally regarded as a free action. If a scroll case is just "corked" at one end like that, then I'd rule it can be done the same way when I'm the GM, but that's just me. I'm a PC more than a GM, though.
That's a good question. Popping the cork on a potion is generally regarded as a free action. If a scroll case is just "corked" at one end like that, then I'd rule it can be done the same way when I'm the GM, but that's just me. I'm a PC more than a GM, though.Retrieving something from your belt counts as drawing a weapon, which is easier than retrieving something from a pack. They're both move actions, but drawing weapons doesn't provoke, and can be done as a free action while moving if your BAB is +1 or higher.Oh yeah. So if the scroll case is in your belt, does that act of removing the scroll from the case mean you're no longer merely drawing a weapon but retrieving a stored item? If so, I may houserule that all adventuring scroll cases are crafted for quick-release, as this seems to be the intent.
Good enough for me.
Where was this drawing from the belt ruling found?Retrieving something from your belt counts as drawing a weapon, which is easier than retrieving something from a pack. They're both move actions, but drawing weapons doesn't provoke, and can be done as a free action while moving if your BAB is +1 or higher.
I only know of here. I think the scroll qualifies under the circumstances, so long as you don't have to fumble with latches and crap. If it's not in a case at all, so much the better.
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I only know of here. I think the scroll qualifies under the circumstances, so long as you don't have to fumble with latches and crap. If it's not in a case at all, so much the better.Where was this drawing from the belt ruling found?Retrieving something from your belt counts as drawing a weapon, which is easier than retrieving something from a pack. They're both move actions, but drawing weapons doesn't provoke, and can be done as a free action while moving if your BAB is +1 or higher.
It is a move action to draw a weapon or weapon-like object that is in easy reach. It is a move action to retrieve an item. Drawing a weapon or weapon-like object can be done for free in some circumstances with a BAB of +1 or higher; the same does not apply to retrieving an object. A wand is called out as weapon-like object as an example.
Weather a scroll in a case at your belt is a weapon-like object is a matter of interpretation. Personally, I don't understand a scroll to be a weapon-like object and interpret it as falling into the category of retrieving an item.
Once the rules get to "weapon-like object", they enter the "intentionally vague so use your best judgment" zone of rules clarification. Otherwise, they'd have defined "weapon-like object" or used a different term. So use your best judgment if you're the GM, or ask your GM to do the same if you're the player.
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If you go from quick draw:
Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
They call out alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands do not work with this feat. Does this mean that they are not weapon-like items, or they are just not covered by this feat though...
No idea.
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From the combat chapter of the Core Rulebook:
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
So wands are specifically called out as working like weapons for the "draw a weapon" action, as opposed to "retrieve an item", which leaves me surprised they're expressly excluded from Quick Draw. I would think that any item in easy reach (attached to a belt, usually) would be treated as weapon-like, to get off the belt.
But in the case of scroll cases, I'm not sure if that just means you can get the scroll case off your belt quickly, or if you can grab the scroll out of the case quickly. I'd think it would depend on how the scroll case itself is designed.
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That's fair. I could see having 3 or 4 scroll cases on my belt with only one combat-useful scroll in each one. Or maybe multiple copies of the same spell in a single scroll case - but definitely don't mix different spells in the same scroll case, where you have to take extra time to find the right one.
Then all the scrolls of utility spells like Comprehend Languages are just shoved in the backpack, since they don't need to be readily available.
Fromper- myself and Helene had one of our late-night Pathfinder discussions last night (after a few post-dinner drinks) and I brought up this ruling with her. My take is that it should take longer (at least a move equivalent action) to draw a scroll than a weapon (as you describe) because it isn't as natural a movement as drawing a weapon and there is some thought/manipulation of the paper involved. She says it is just another case of discrimination against spell-casters by the rules and sides with the idea that drawing a scroll should be similar to drawing a weapon as a mage would have practiced it enough (as a warrior would drawing a sword). We agreed to disagree on this one.
What I could see is either a feat that allows "fast draw" of scrolls or a special scroll "quiver" designed for fast access and worn at the belt.
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The special scroll "quiver" idea is written up in Magic Item Compendium (a late 3.5 resource).
Is it discrimination vs. spell-casters? Maybe. But I think that also puts it in terms that assures a given kind of reaction. The rules set up magic use and mundane weapon use differently. I don't have a problem with this; others may and it becomes a matter of the philosophy of what given players are seeking out of a gaming system.
An item merely being on a belt or other easily accessible location is an insufficient condition under the rules. It also needs to be weapon-like object for drawing on the move. The difference between Quick Draw and drawing on the move seems a bit odd to me, but ultimately draws a clear line in what is otherwise a grey area.
All said, if this is home game where the style of play seeks to move where that line is regarding the tactical opportunities for different characters, handle it in a way that provides the experience that provides the most fun regarding how the game matches the style of play that is desired.