I know it has been brought up before. In fact, are there any good threads on the topic that include a bunch of good advice?
I was thinking along the lines of a Spawn meets a Cloaker type character. Basically using the cloak as a living symbiote.
I also had an idea of going for the Synthesist meets dragon deciple route. I had actually even thought of taking the draconic bloodline via eldritch heritage and taking levels in that PrC but I feel it would weaken the build to do so. Since the stats given by DD don't stack with those given by the eidolon it would be rather a waste. But I was rather thinking of taking dragon-like evolutions and basically making the eidolon be like a second skin that is rather scaly.
For these types of builds any suggestions for evolutions, feats and equipment? The biggest downfall to a melee synthesist that I can see is the poor BAB.
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Melee Synths are insanely overpowered; your 30 strength at 8th level will make the not-quite full BAB bonus irrelevant. As to building for specifics, you'd give a dragon large size, wings, claws, bite, and armor (standard except wings) on a Quadraped, and later probably breath weapon for flavor. A cloaked would be hard to reproduce; increased stealth, grab, dunno?
You'll outpace any melees in your party though; don't sweat thinking you'll be underpowered :).
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There's really no wrong way to do it. >_>
Just buff size (I wouldn't recommend going above Large), give yourself as many attacks per level as you can have, grab pounce if it fits your concept, and buff natural armor and strength (all those things in that order).
And yeah, you don't have poor BAB. You have medium, which is perfectly fine for melee (even Eidolons have ~medium BAB).
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Assuming you want to appear similar to a dragon disciple:
Improved natural armor(scales), bite, energy immunity(chosen element), wings, breath weapon, ability increase(strength).
Instead of adding extra arms, focus on attacks such as rend, grab, poison, wing-buffet.
For a cloaked character, just use a reskinned tentacle evolution. Claws can be redefined as spikes, etc. Mechanically it makes no difference, but a few PFS DM's may throw temper tantrums if you play the game in a manner other than in their approved style or are just biased against the synthesist class.
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Melee Synths are insanely overpowered; your 30 strength at 8th level will make the not-quite full BAB bonus irrelevant. As to building for specifics, you'd give a dragon large size, wings, claws, bite, and armor (standard except wings) on a Quadraped, and later probably breath weapon for flavor. A cloaked would be hard to reproduce; increased stealth, grab, dunno?
You'll outpace any melees in your party though; don't sweat thinking you'll be underpowered :).
This is an exaggeration, and the synthesist can indeed be built poorly.
Don't pick natural attacks that are secondary, and if you're stacking a large amount, consider a quadruped build for pounce. If you're going to dump your physical stats, consider keeping you constitution relatively high anyway for inevitable banishes or high damage hits that knock your powersuit off.
If you can afford it in your point buy (and as a synthesist, you probably can), try to have a higher constitution in your normal form than in your eidolon form. This will result in something a little like a barbarian dropping out of rage when he goes unconscious, but reversed. If you drop down to negative hit points, your suit will disappear, raising your constitution and possibly making you conscious again.
For first level building into a dragon, I would start with a quadruped with a trip attack on the bite. For the other two evolution points at that level, I would go with some arms; losing casting and doorknob manipulation is unacceptable.
Remember that as a synthesist you do not qualify for Extra Evolution; good feats to start you off include Toughness, Improved Initiative, and depending on your interpretation of the rules, Power Attack.
Hm. I didn't think of that. Ability score prereq for feats like Power Attack. I assume thats what you were refering to. Is there any official ruling on this?
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Well since it's a bonus that can definitely last longer than 24 hours, you're most certainly allowed to take it after first level. Taking it as your first level feat is stickiest, because your BAB doesn't even cover it until you're in eidolon form. I suppose if one prerequisite doesn't matter outside your suit, the others shouldn't matter either.
I mean, I know how I would rule it as a DM without any official ruling. I think we agree on that. But I'm wondering if this has any official PF ruling.
In 3.x you could take a feat that you qualified for only after bonuses from items but if you lost those items or could otherwise not use them then you lost use of that feat. If the feat qualified you for a PrC you lost use of the PrC's abilities as well. This made it unwise in most circumstances but still doable.
Well since it's a bonus that can definitely last longer than 24 hours, you're most certainly allowed to take it after first level. Taking it as your first level feat is stickiest, because your BAB doesn't even cover it until you're in eidolon form. I suppose if one prerequisite doesn't matter outside your suit, the others shouldn't matter either.
The 24-hour thing only applies to enhancement bonuses.
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Well since it's a bonus that can definitely last longer than 24 hours, you're most certainly allowed to take it after first level. Taking it as your first level feat is stickiest, because your BAB doesn't even cover it until you're in eidolon form. I suppose if one prerequisite doesn't matter outside your suit, the others shouldn't matter either.The 24-hour thing only applies to enhancement bonuses.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
I don't see where it says that.
Good point. I don't see him using power attack without his suit. But I'm wondering if there is still a ruling on whether he is able to use his bonuses granted by the eidolon/symbiote to qualify for feats.
Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wear the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist's movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon's sense and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon's temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the class's eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
Being that it states "modifiers to ability scores" rather than saying "an enhancement bonus to ability score" like a strength belt might give is what leads me to my doubt. Its sorta like a familiar using it's master's ranks in skills in that the familiar doesn't get it's own ranks, it just is using it's masters. The familiar couldn't qualify for things that require the ranks if they didn't have them. I'm not certain the way this would work.
Dipping monk could get you access to Dragon Style - useful for both the Strength bonus to damage (which can be applied to claws via Feral Combat Training) and the ability to charge pretty much anywhere (especially useful if you go quadruped -> pounce). The Master of Many Styles could get you your style feats faster, and the possibility of netting one of the normally-higher style feats (such as Snake Fang) at a much earlier level. The Maneuver Master could give you a free combat maneuver during a full attack (great with pounce).
All of that could be had with a one or two level dip - worth it for a melee summoner, IMHO.
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...Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wear the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist's movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon's sense and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon's temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the
That's great, but the 24 hour permanent bonus rule does not state that the bonuses must be enhancement bonuses. Therefore, these do apply.
Dipping monk could get you access to Dragon Style - useful for both the Strength bonus to damage (which can be applied to claws via Feral Combat Training) and the ability to charge pretty much anywhere (especially useful if you go quadruped -> pounce). The Master of Many Styles could get you your style feats faster, and the possibility of netting one of the normally-higher style feats (such as Snake Fang) at a much earlier level. The Maneuver Master could give you a free combat maneuver during a full attack (great with pounce).
All of that could be had with a one or two level dip - worth it for a melee summoner, IMHO.
I would not multiclass except for possibly two levels of paladin. The more you multiclass, the weaker your eidolon is, and that's bad. If you really want a style feat, you can qualify for one without being a master of many styles, and the only manoeuvre you should concern yourself with is grab, which can be used for free with a bite attack and an evolution point.
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Remember that as a synthesist you do not qualify for Extra Evolution; good feats to start you off include Toughness, Improved Initiative, and depending on your interpretation of the rules, Power Attack.Melee Synths are insanely overpowered; your 30 strength at 8th level will make the not-quite full BAB bonus irrelevant. As to building for specifics, you'd give a dragon large size, wings, claws, bite, and armor (standard except wings) on a Quadraped, and later probably breath weapon for flavor. A cloaked would be hard to reproduce; increased stealth, grab, dunno?
You'll outpace any melees in your party though; don't sweat thinking you'll be underpowered :).
Why doesn't he qualify for extra evolution?
Doesn't it say in the description something to the effect that the summoner uses his own abilities and gear and in ALL OTHER CASES this ability function's as the summoner's normal eidolon ability?
He doesn't qualify because the prerequisite is the Eidolon class feature, which the synthesist archetype replaces with the Fused Eidolon class feature.
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Nope. No Eidolon class feature means he doesn't meet the prerequisites for the feat.
I disagree, and I'd say the evidence favors my point of view. Just FYI.
If it looks like a duck or says it counts as a duck it's a duck. So feel free to take the Feat. Except maybe in PFS, where I'm not sure if an official determination has been made on such things.
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For the reason that a brawler archetyped fighter can't use gloves of dueling, I would say no. PFS hasn't made a ruling, so expect there to be GM variation, which means sometimes your character will be viewed as illegal.
Assuming that this character is for PFS, sure. That's...quite the assumption. For anything else, the post I linked is a pretty damn official statement that it'd work.
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For the reason that a brawler archetyped fighter can't use gloves of dueling, I would say no. PFS hasn't made a ruling, so expect there to be GM variation, which means sometimes your character will be viewed as illegal.Assuming that this character is for PFS, sure. That's...quite the assumption. For anything else, the post I linked is a pretty damn official statement that it'd work.
The point of that thread is that the oracle DOES get the channel energy class feature, it's just not explicitly called out. The synthesist archetype explicitly replaces the prerequisite for Extra Evolution, so it's illegal to take that feat. That is a trade-off to picking the archetype.
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He does qualify for extra evolution; but Mergy is right on the wording. It's just been errataed. Polearm specialists do NOT qualify for gloves of duelists; just as Ninjas can't get extra rogue tricks. But oddly, they fixed it for the synth. But just be a half-elf, you should have better things to do with your feats than what can be gained for 1 evo point.
Is it scary that I followed what galahad2112 said? Holy duck!
The character is not for PFS play.
I will not be going the pounce route and would honestly prefer to not go quadrapedal mostly for asthetic reasons (I envision more of a half-dragon look than a full dragon look). My DM has a dim view of pounce abuse and I can't say that I blame him with the game breakingly good builds surrounding it. He knows that I build powerful characters but that I don't want to break the game or make it harder on my party so I'm going to be skipping that bit.
Half-elf might not be so bad. I was thinking human for the feat though as I'll need to get a bunch of combat feats to get up to speed as I don't get any bonus feats.
What is this about Brawlers and polearm specialists not qualifying for gloves of duelist? Why for come?
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He does qualify for extra evolution; but Mergy is right on the wording. It's just been errataed. Polearm specialists do NOT qualify for gloves of duelists; just as Ninjas can't get extra rogue tricks. But oddly, they fixed it for the synth. But just be a half-elf, you should have better things to do with your feats than what can be gained for 1 evo point.
Officially errata'd? I will check UM now! :)
EDIT: Um, not finding it. I've looked at the errata that concerns the summoner and the synthesist in Ultimate Magic. I've also looked at the FAQ. Is it in the APG for some reason?
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.
(bolding mine)
Mergy: So by your reading "ability bonuses" = "modifiers to ability scores" in this context? I'm not certain that is what is intended. Note that the Synthesist does not inherit the Eidolon's ability score, it only uses it's "modifiers to ability scores".
Am I not making sense here?...
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Well the eidolon's scores become the synthesist's scores, which I would definitely treat as an ability bonus. I would also note it separately in case they are removed.
Since the eidolon only goes away when the synthesist goes unconscious, and the synthesist can definitely stay up for 24 hours straight, there's no worry about qualifying for feats.
Well the eidolon's scores become the synthesist's scores...
But thats not really true by my reading of it. Unless I missed something they use the eidolon's ability scores. The synthesist's ability scores do not actually change. For anything other than prerequisites for feats, etc. the difference is moot. But I think the importance of the difference might be enough to disallow using it to fulfill a feat prerequisite here.
Believe me, I'd like it to work that way. It would pretty much let me dump his Strenght and Dex scores. But I am not certain that it works that way.
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Well the eidolon's scores become the synthesist's scores...But thats not really true by my reading of it. Unless I missed something they use the eidolon's ability scores. The synthesist's ability scores do not actually change. For anything other than prerequisites for feats, etc. the difference is moot. But I think the importance of the difference might be enough to disallow using it to fulfill a feat prerequisite here.
Believe me, I'd like it to work that way. It would pretty much let me dump his Strenght and Dex scores. But I am not certain that it works that way.
It doesn't matter. For the purposes of the synthesist, the ability scores fulfill the prerequisites as long as they've been around for longer than 24 hours when he takes the feat. It doesn't matter that when he takes the suit off he's got a 5 strength; it matters that he has 13+ now and qualifies for it.
I don't think your understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that even when he has the suit on he has a 5 Str. The SUIT has a 13+ Str, and he gets to us it's Str while wears it. But the score is not his.
This is different from when you wear a belt that changes your Str score. In that case it would actually be modifying your score, not your eidolon's.
Listen, I really dont mean to be a stickler here but I don't think that a Synthesist could take Power Attack at level 1. I have no disagreement that the Fused Eidolon has a Strength of 13 and a +1 BAB, that isn't the problem. The problem is this:
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon's temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
Again, it says that the Sythesist "gains the eidolon's modifiers to ability scores". It does not say that the Synthesist "gains the eidolon's ability scores". He gains the modifiers. In other words he gains the "+2", "+3", "+4", etc. He does not gain a Strength of "14", "16", "18", etc.
I do not know if this is intentional or not but by RAW the Synthesist does not meet the prerequisites for Power Attack at level 1 with abilities granted by the Eidolon alone. However, if he had a Strength of 13 then I think he would qualify even at level 1 as "The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus..."
No?... Unless what I'm looking at is based off an old printing or something? Here is my link.
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He can take Power Attack. The quote you highlighted includes "uses the eidolon's physical ability scores". He also "uses the eidolon's base attack bonus... and modifiers to ability scores."
Now, if they had wanted to, they didn't have to say the first part about using the eidolon's physical ability scores, because the modifiers clause would have achieved most of that for all intents and purposes. Since the summoner is using the eidolon's scores, however, he's got the prerequisites; since the summoner is using the eidolon's base attack bonus, he actually qualifies at level 1.
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He can take Power Attack. The quote you highlighted includes "uses the eidolon's physical ability scores". He also "uses the eidolon's base attack bonus... and modifiers to ability scores."
Now, if they had wanted to, they didn't have to say the first part about using the eidolon's physical ability scores, because the modifiers clause would have achieved most of that for all intents and purposes. Since the summoner is using the eidolon's scores, however, he's got the prerequisites; since the summoner is using the eidolon's base attack bonus, he actually qualifies at level 1.
Negative, he GAINS the modifiers to ability scores (along with the natural armor bonus). I don't think the designers would have used that word unless they meant to make it clear that it is referring to the level based modifiers the Eidolon normally gains, which is why they included the natural armor bonus in the same statement.
Also, I don't see him "using" the scores as a bonus or enhancement. He is making use of them temporarily, his own scores remain unchanged.
For some reason you're not reading the first part, where the summoner uses the eidolon's physical ability scores. That's what qualifies him for feats.
In any case, check the FAQ. You may not like the way the rules work, but they're still the rules.
EDIT: So apparently the FAQ does not include the SKR quote where he states that the eidolon is similar to wearing a stat-increasing belt. The FAQ linked in this thread does include said quote. I would recommend giving it a read.
I do not own Ultimate Magic. The change from the wording of it as opposed to what is on the PRD concerns me. Typically they only change the wording like this if there has been some kind of errata or FAQ on something. I looked through what I could find and I could not find anything pertaining to this subject.
Does anyone happen to own Ultimate Magic and can check to see if the wording is the same as what Christopher Lee posted? Does anyone happen to know why the discrepency exists?
I believe that the difference in wording is important here. If it is as Christopher Lee posted then I am inclined to agree with Mergy that you do qualify for Power Attack at first level. This is mostly because I can't think of any other term to use then "uses" to denote that you actually use the eidolon's scores. However, if there has been some change and the official wording of the class ability is that which is posted on the PRD as I linked above then I stand by my initial judgement that gaining the modifiers is not the same as gaining the ability scores thus he would not qualify at first level.