I've been looking into Pathfinder for an upcoming game, and I've got a few questions related to Summoners and Eidolons. I tried searching the d20pfsrd website, but I did not find anything for the following questions:
1) Is Constrict considered a natural attack, thus benefiting from the Energy Attacks mutation?
2) I suspect this will be no, but can Rake be taken more than once?
3) Can the claws gained from Rake be used as a normal primary attack, or can they only be used from successfully grappling?
4) How does a full-attack work, exactly? The most I've found out is the base attack bonus of X/Y/Z has X applies to primary, Y applies to secondary. Z is unknown.
5) Do evolutions like Claws or Pincers from Aspect/Greater Aspect impact the summoner's ability to cast spells?
6) Is the Large evolution stackable with size-altering spells? Example: Casting Enlarge Humanoid on the Eidolon via Share Spells.
7) I assume no to these questions, but is there any way to stack castings of Lesser/Greater Evolution Surge with each other or themselves? Do these momentary evolution points allow one to surpass the maximum number of natural weapons available to an Eidolon? Can Evolution Surge be used to pick up the Large evolution, even though that would put the effective evolution points pool into the deep negatives if Ability Increase has been taken multiple times?
8) Slightly related, is the feat Elemental Fist considered an Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of the Feral Combat Training feat?
9) Is the Eidolon considered proficient with natural weapons, and if not, is there a feat that would allow for that?
I think that's just about everything.
1: "Constrict (Ex): An eidolon gains powerful muscles that allow it to crush those it grapples. Whenever the eidolon successfully grapples a foe using the grab evolution, it deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the serpentine base form." If the Natural attack used is empowered by Energy attacks, then yes. But Constrict needs to be "linked" to an attack that has the Grab Evolution.
2: possibly yes, but he's need 2 more Limbs evolution for them to be placed on, and it counts as one of his Natural attacks.
3: only as part of a grappling, "The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
4: BAB with natural weapons is full bonus, but you can only make one attack (secondary NA gets a -5) in other words. say BAB of 10, 3 natural attacks that are Primary ones, and 4 secondary, full attack would then be BAB + Strength for the first 3, then BAB + strength -5 for the 4 secondary
It gets a but complicated if the eidelon is using a greatsword at the same time. then it would be GS 2 times, at +10 and +5, then ALL the natural attacks but at -5 (as they would then counts as secondary.)
5: honestly i don't know, Claws I'd say no, Pincers I'd say yes, you can't do complicated somatic movements with pincers(but talk to the DM, house rules do happen)
6: yes, the large and huge evolution is a natural thing, it changes his base size.
7: here is the spell. no, you cant stack them for a greater effect (more evo points to spend) the spell does not let you exceed the max number of natural attacks. The Large evolution does not increase the cost of ability increases (Huge evolution does, and the spell can not give that evolution, not enough evo points)
8: yes (but the pre-req feats and needed stats still need to be met)
9: any evolution he has that gives a natural weapon, he is proficient with it.
2. No. You can't take an evolution more than once unless it specifically says so in the evolution's description.
4. if it helps... Natural Attacks
5.See this
Quote: 7: here is the spell. no, you cant stack them for a greater effect (more evo points to spend) the spell does not let you exceed the max number of natural attacks. The Large evolution does not increase the cost of ability increases (Huge evolution does, and the spell can not give that evolution, not enough evo points) Large (Ex) wrote: An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the eidolon instead becomes Huge. The eidolon gains a +16 bonus to Strength, a +8 bonus to Constitution, and a +5 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –4 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also give the creature a –2 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a +2 bonus to its CMB and CMD, 10-foot reach, a –4 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –8 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, its reach increases to 15 feet (10 feet for all other base forms). Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. These bonuses and penalties replace, and do not stack with, those gained from becoming Large. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this option.
The ability increase evolution costs twice as much (4 evolution points) when adding to the Strength or Constitution scores of a Large or Huge eidolon.
Reading the spell it looks like you can cheese the Ability Increase thing RAW, but I'd also expect DMs to disallow it.
As to stacking the spells, I'd say the intent is No, or rather, you'd only get the highest bonus. (Note that you don't actually gain Evo points, you gain an evolution, and I see no actual restriction on multiple castings for separate, different evolutions...)
And a clear No to bypassing natural attack limits. (although as a house rule it wouldn't be unreasonable to Surge new/different weapons provided the number of actual attacks made is still limited by the max)
8. Keep in mind Elem Fist has uses/day and can only be applied to 1 attack per round.
Thank you to those that responded. I've got a couple more questions, still related to Summoners/Eidolons if anyone would be willing to help.
10) Are Eidolons allowed to take any Feat as long as it has the pre-requisites, or are there rules against the taking of certain feats (such as Improved Unarmed Strike)? This question was raised when I found a different post mentioning that monsters are not allowed to take this feat, and am uncertain if this is true or applies to Eidolons as well.
11) Is there a limit to the number of times an Eidolon can use Rend? It does not have the same wording as the monster's version, which mentions a limit to one Rend per round.
12) Does additional damage from the Energy Attacks evolution apply to each successful hit or each unique natural attack? Example: If all attacks hit for an Eidolon with claws and hooves evolutions, does that result in 2d6 or 4d6 energy damage?
13) When a grapple is sustained and damage is chosen, does Energy Attacks apply to it or is it not truly a natural attack? Example: On a successful grapple sustain, player decides to use the Eidolon's claws for its damage. Does Energy Attacks apply (I assume they're automatic successful hits of said natural attack)?
14) If a 20th level summoner uses Twin Eidolon, does the Summoner lose evolutions gained from Aspect/Greater Aspect?
Again, thank you for the aid, it has helped a lot in refining my knowledge behind the Summoner class.
10: "Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat that they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats. Eidolon feats are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level. If, due to changes, the eidolon no longer qualifies for a feat, the feat has no effect until the eidolon once again qualifies for the feat." keep in mind that while a summoner can rearrange the evolution points when he gets a new level (so instead of 6 points in limbs and gore or something, the eidolon would loose that and get the huge evolution, assuming it's larged) the summoner / eidolon can NOT change base form OR Feats selected. (the DM rule applies here, the DM can decide that the eidolon can not take certain feats)
11: "Rend (Ex): An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon's Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution." well, it needs two claw attacks to hit, if it has 4 different claw attacks and they all hit, there is nothing in the description of Rend that says it does not happen more then once. so I'd say yes.
12: it adds a 1D6 of energy damage to each normal damage dice / individual natural attack (as natural attacks can only be used once even on a full attack)
13: I'd say yes, however i think you still need an attack roll against the one grappled (he just has a lower AC from the grappled condition)
14. depends on what evolutions he's got from Aspect, anything physical, like a claw attack or size change or wings is lost, as the summoner becomes identical to the eidolon, only "mental" stats remain. "The summoner loses his natural attacks and all racial traits (except bonus feats, skills, and languages) in favor of the abilities granted by his eidolon's evolutions. "
do remember, as with all things in this game, DM's rule is final, so talk to you DM aswell.
Edit: added DM sentence.
Thank you for the speedy response; I didn't know the summoner was free to redistribute evolution points every time they level. Does this include points the summoner has from Aspect or Greater Aspect? What use is the fourth level Summoner spell Transmogrify if you essentially get it for free with every level?
Additionally, I was not sure about the attacks required from grapple due to its wording. If that is true, then my question on it related to Energy Attacks is much simpler than I thought.
Anyways, there are some parts of your response that I may need clarified:
Mucronis wrote: well, it needs two claw attacks to hit, if it has 4 different claw attacks and they all hit, there is nothing in the description of Rend that says it does not happen more then once. so I'd say yes. The reason I was asking was due to the feat Rending Fury, which allows Rend to activate from half the normally required number of claw attacks. However, the feat itself says the rend cannot be activated more than once per round, creating a discrepancy between the Eidolon evolution and the feat that can be potentially taken.
Mucronis wrote: 12: it adds a 1D6 of energy damage to each normal damage dice / individual natural attack (as natural attacks can only be used once even on a full attack) I don't quite understand your wording. According to the evolutions, taking Claws and Hooves would give the Eidolon two primary claw attacks and two secondary hoof attacks. With a full-attack with no other natural attacks available, does this mean the Eidolon makes 2 or 4 attacks, applying a similar number of activations of Energy Attacks?
Mucronis wrote: 14. depends on what evolutions he's got from Aspect, anything physical, like a claw attack or size change or wings is lost, as the summoner becomes identical to the eidolon, only "mental" stats remain. I suspected physical attributes may be purged through changing shape, but I was looking more at the Immunity evolution. I can't quite tell if that is physical or not.
I've unfortunately come up with a couple more questions:
15) How does Swallow Whole work with the use of bite/grappling in future cases? Example: Eidolon bites/grabs/Swallows Whole enemy A. Swallow Whole removes the grapple status from the Eidolon. Is the Eidolon capable of biting/grabbing/swallowing whole enemy B while enemy A is still alive?
16) Can a multi-headed Eidolon with Bite on each head grapple or Swallow Whole more than one unit at a time? I assume as long as the Eidolon is not affected by the grapple condition, it can attempt to grapple again.
I've looked into the universal monster version of Grab and noticed some significant differences. Quoted:
"Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."
All bolded parts are those that have no mention within the Eidolon version of Grab.
a) Instead of a free action grapple check, the Eidolon version is just called a combat maneuver check. Additionally, the Eidolon version does not state that it prevents attacks of opportunity.
b) I'm not sure if it's allowed or not to use only the body part for the Eidolon.
c) There is absolutely no mention of free damage for the body part that initiated the grapple within the Eidolon Grab for each successful grapple check. This leads me to the following questions:
17) If an Eidolon has more than one body part that can activate Grab, do they get more than one chance to grapple an opponent during a full-attack?
18) Is that free damage from part c of the differences included for the Eidolon grab?
Mucronis wrote: The Large evolution does not increase the cost of ability increases
Yes it does. Read the text again:
APG wrote: "The ability increase evolution costs twice as much (4 evolution points) when adding to the Strength or Constitution scores of a Large or Huge eidolon."
An eidolon with claws + hooves has 4 attacks.
Yes, an eidolon can grab multiple opponents in a single round if he is built for it. Maintaining multiple grapples in successive rounds is more difficult due to action costs. (For fun, consider a Synthesist with bite, poison, grab, trip, reach, Feral Combat Training and Flurry of Blows.) Even under the most conservative rulings, a hasted Eidolon with grab is still going to get an extra usage.
The lead designer of PF has clarified that the eidolon's rend is once per turn.
12. each successful hit.
But the way you asked the question caused some confusion.
Each hit only ever does 1d6 energy damage for purposes of energy resistance (which means it is all but defeated by ER 5)
13. The grapple check is the attack roll, if a CMB(Grapple-Damage) check succeeds you deal damage.
from Grapple
Damage wrote: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal. To me this reads that it is an attack of the chosen type, so yes, Energy Attacks applies to a natural attack from your eidolon.
14. My gut says you'd lose an Immunity evo from Aspect
15./16. Swallow Whole (Ex) wrote: An eidolon gains the swallow whole ability, giving it the ability to consume its foes. If the eidolon begins its turn with a creature grappled using its bite attack (see the grab evolution), it can attempt a combat maneuver check to swallow the creature. The creature can be up to one size category smaller than the eidolon. Swallowed creatures take damage equal to the eidolon’s bite damage each round plus 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, but can attempt to cut its way free with a light slashing or piercing weapon. The amount of damage needed to cut free is equal to 1/10 the eidolon’s total hit points. The eidolon’s AC against these attacks is equal to 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the eidolon loses this ability until it heals this damage. Alternatively, the swallowed creature can attempt to escape the grapple as normal. Success indicates that it has returned to the eidolon’s mouth, where it can attempt to escape or be swallowed again. The eidolon must possess the grab evolution, tied to a bite attack, to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 9th level before selecting this evolution. By most accounts, that means the size of it's stomach is 1 size category smaller, and can hold an equivalent volume of creatures.
However, some GMs might limit this to 1 creature at a time.
Yes, you can Grab another creature after you SW.
For most purposes, 1 medium creature/object = 2 small = 4 tiny, etc
Just do the math based on your size.
16. Also, it appears that Swallow Whole isn't just another grapple check(although it's resolved using that modifier), but is its own action resolved as a standard action(combat maneuver).
I bring this up because feat like Greater Grapple allow more grapple attempts in 1 round, but those grapple attempts could not be SW... (so you can only swallow 1 creature per round -- assuming your DM even lets you attempt to swallow multiples)
Eidolon Grab wrote: An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. I will admit that they have some issues where such abilities have been redefined, but the part I bolded I take to mean the UMR Grab ability, so an Eidolon's grab should be identical...
A)They didn't intend for Grab to suck by provoking an AoO
B)not sure what you're asking so...
-Grab evo: you can gain this with 1 type of attack and no more
-a Grab must be done using the type of attack to which it was assigned
-a limb/attack using Grab to "hold" a creature is still occupied for the purposes of doing other things with that limb/attack
-the -20 simply lets you not gain the grappled condition (which prevents movement among other things without an additional check)
C/18.)It appears this damage only applies to a "hold" check anyway (which I assume is still at -20 ??)
I believe it describes that you don't get said damage on the initial Grab(hold), but only on subsequent Grapple(hold) checks
17. Yes, but this only matters for builds with Rake or Constrict
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