I'm looking to collect, out of curiosity once again, people's thoughts on the "tactician & strategist" forms of classes and Archetypes. Perhaps a bit of discussion on ways to make them work particularly well, if people are in the mood.
I, personally, thought that any class/archetype based around tactics, strategy, and teamwork feats were utter garbage... Those that weren't the Inquisitor or Cavalier, that is. I had read them, considered what of the game I know and the play styles of people I know, and deemed them unusable at worst, situational at best. After all, the d20 system (3e in particular) started to foster an "I'm the star of the show" attitude, especially in the people I have been gaming with for the past year or so. Even the mere concept of teamwork outside of synchronizing party builds to cover all based, or saying "do this, and I'll do this next turn!", was down right abhorrent to them.... Sad.
Then, having not gamed with that group for a few months, I was boredly reading archetypes, and had an epiphany. These things weren't so bad, if you had a group that'd be willing to use them. Hell, a tactically-minded GM can make a vicious team of villains out of these, and any player group that decided to make such a team would give the GM a serious headache.
With a mere team of 4, a group can give a GM a hard time when it comes to combat. I speak of course, of the team consisting of Fighter (Tactician), Paladin (Holy Tactician), Cavalier (Strategist), Tactics-domain Cleric (Divine Strategist). From what I can gather, those 4 units in a party will spell death to many things, especially eeevil things thanks to that Paladin's "Weal's Champion" ability.
Sure, it's not "omg" powerful, but it definitely can throw the wrench in the well thought out plan of the BBEG, given some of the versatility they get. Now, a typical party (in my experience) is 6, so let's round out the other 2 characters, yes?
Ah, so many potential choices. To further the "teamwork through strategy and tactics" theme, I present the Ranger, either as a Warden or a Battle Scout. I would personally say the Warden is a bit better, but the Battle Scout seems kind of good too. If you've got a team set up for AoOs, a Magus (Kensai) can't go wrong. At 11th level, late I know, a Kensai can make a number of AoOs = to his int mod, and it stacks with Combat Reflexes, what an AoO beast! Of course, if we're going to cover Arcane casting here, and some versatility, I'd say the Wizard is a good choice. Foresight sub school, lets you act in the surprise round, and at level 8 gives you a nice aura to help allies or hinder foes, also a few times a day you can essentially roll a d20 twice. Scroll Master archetype would allow a Wiz to get up close and personal with the rest of them, or at least provide some help if he gets dragged into Melee. Beyond that, you can't go wrong with a Knife Master Rogue, definitely boosts max damage output with it's d8 sneak attack.
Now, that's just an idea I had that made me think the 4 core archetypes of that hypothetical party would work really well together. Individually they're still quite good, if you have a group that understands TEAMWORK. In the mean time, there is one "party team work" archetype I'm having trouble seeing the value in. The Sensei. I just can't wrap my head around any situation that that archetype would be good for!
Well that's my two cents. This is primarily for the discussion of the archetypes and what not in and of themselves, but party make up will likely play a vital role in how good one is..... So, if you have to, list some 'dream' parties too.
Edit: Feel free to interject Prestige Classes into this. I haven't given them much thought, so there might be something concerning the whole "strategy" theme I'm missing.
there is the battle herald as a prestige class that is tactical but do not have any expirence with it. Although I think you can use tactics with any achtype if you think hard enough.
I'm a big fan of those types of archetypes (enough to write a few supplements on their themes!). They're especially great for experienced players playing with less experienced types. Instead of outshining them, you're making them awesome! Which means they have more fun, and you get to play more :D
I also second Caedwyr's recommendation of the War Master. It's an awesome class for this role. There'll also be an update to it sometime to make it work with the Teamwork Feats (since it came out before the APG).
For the sensei, I remember seeing a hilarious party buffer that was a ki mystic qingong sensei, probably with a few vows (although I'm not sure if qingong works, since I remember seeing something about still mind). The basic idea was that you would inspire your allies (with lingering performance to help out), and then helping out their allies, giving advice as you go.
Of the 4 you mention, Holy tactician is probably the best. Your trade Smite for Weal's Champion (basically smite but only 1/2 damage bonus) and you get More free teamwork feats than a cavalier does. Your ability to share those feats is short duration but usable.
I like the tactician ability but they could bave done with an extra bonus teamwork feat at 4 or 5.
ability but they could bave done with an extra bonus teamwork feat at 4 or 5.
I would ahve liked it if they could have used it with any team work feats they had. As it was it is extremely limited. Greater tactician however is pretty awesome.
Stratagist archetype helps a bit if you have time to use 'drill sergent'.
I have been trying to get that Honorguard, Stratagist build I posted in your cavalier Handbook thread into a PbP for awhile now. Seems strong to me mechanically, but no one has bitten yet. Maybe my fluff is not interesting enough (or DM's are umfamiliar with the archetypes).
In any case it's the one Cavalier varient that can impart more than 1 feat to allies before Gtr Tactician...
Still it sucks the Holy Tactician Paladin can swift change what feat allies get at level 3. AND he gets 3 by level 10(Precise strike, Outflank and Coordinated Charge here). He's pretty good at it.
Also.notice allies.get thier Weal bonus on whoever the pally hits so long as thier evil. Cleave would be a good feat for this guy to affect two foes with Weal at once.
|
I can say from experience. Groups like this are very hard to challenge with in the normal CR system. Even if there are on a 15 point buy.
Out of 5 players.
Bard : Combat focused, half elf ancestral weapon Fauchard (Reach,Trip).
Oracle : Combat focused, Human Fauchard (Reach,Trip), Maneuver Master Trip.
Fighter (Tactician) : Falacta and Tower Shield.
Ranger : Switch hitter
Rogue : Switch hitter
Even with just two players ruining force multipliers. It really changes how well the group preforms in combat. The group even at low levels with 15 point build. They where not challenged with out a CR +3. They have taken down CR +5 that was a little tough for them. So it relay depends on the party. If they can use tactical builds, and know tactics it really makes things hard.
I can say from experience. Groups like this are very hard to challenge with in the normal CR system. Even if there are on a 15 point buy.
Out of 5 players.
Bard : Combat focused, half elf ancestral weapon Fauchard (Reach,Trip).
Oracle : Combat focused, Human Fauchard (Reach,Trip), Maneuver Master Trip.
Fighter (Tactician) : Falacta and Tower Shield.
Ranger : Switch hitter
Rogue : Switch hitterEven with just two players ruining force multipliers. It really changes how well the group preforms in combat. The group even at low levels with 15 point build. They where not challenged with out a CR +3. They have taken down CR +5 that was a little tough for them. So it relay depends on the party. If they can use tactical builds, and know tactics it really makes things hard.
A bit curious, and you can PM me this, but how does a switch hitter rogue work?