The Kingmaker Player's Guide doesn't mention any of the classes from the APG, so I'm wondering if there is any problem with allowing them. Has anyone had any problems allowing characters from the APG?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It doesn't have them because they were being written at the same time. I turned in my manuscript for War of the River Kings, for instance, in January of 2010. I was writing stuff for the APG from October of 2009 to April of 2010.
The problems with APG classes are really no greater or smaller than those of other classes. The nature of much of the Kingmaker AP plays to the strengths of characters who can "go nova" in one or two encounters per day, as a lot of the exploration will end up with encounters on that kind of frequency. That said, there are several dungeon/castle sections (especially in parts 3-5) where a lot more stamina is required and nova characters may find themselves unprepared if they don't have a ready backup plan.
With a fair number of wilderness encounters, our Cavalier has certainly had his moments to shine.
Our Alchemist has managed to miss with a stunningly high number of Ranged Touch attacks -- most of the other players wince visibly when the player mentions that his character will throw a bomb -- as discoveries that should keep them safe don't work on a miss.
But neither of them have been "problems" as such.
OK, thank you everyone for the advice. I will allow APG characters in my game then.
I'm curious. What about the Ultimate Combat/Magic classes?
should be fine.
In our experience:
Witch - fine, though it's one of the more powerful classes. I've restatted The Old Beldame in book 2 as a proper witch.
Oracle - fantastic class. Balanced, easier to play than a cleric and with some nifty abilities. Wish there were more options for the Oracle's Curse, though.
Alchemist - bombs are quite powerful at low levels, and then again when you start running across things with Spell Resistance. If you get an alchemist who always takes discoveries/feats to improve his bombs, beware. Also for the player, because nothing they use quite works like a spell, they're a bit fiddly to run.
Magus, ninja - only started using either of these lately, but they seem balanced and fun. Note that if you use any of the oriental-inspired classes from UC, you'll have to place some strange weapons as treasure. The ninja really loses out by not having bow proficiency.
Haven't tried any of the other classes yet.
That's a good point Thrund about the oriental classes and the treasure. I think I will just have to inform my party if they choose that type of character, they may have difficulty obtaining equipment. My primary concerns are the oriental classes and the gunslinger I guess, but I think I will allow them regardless.
The only class in the APG that I take issue with is the Summoner, I think it's border-line OP, though some would disagree. I really like Oracle quite a lot and the class arch-types are quite good.
I have no big regrets about allowing the APG in my Kingmaker game at all.
I just posted this under the SS thread and it is appropriate there too.
I permit CRB and APG. My general rule is if I own the book it is permitted, if I do not it is not permitted. As GM, I have a lot on my plate running the overall game and I put a lot of time in being prepared prior to every session. Obviously, if I don't have a book then I can not prepare for the material contained therein.
One other thing that I do, if the book was published after the AP, then I do not permit the material. The overall AP theme was not factoring later books material. The exception that I made was for this KM, where I did permit the APG beta rules. With the understanding that when the book was published characters would be modified in accordance. This did effect two characters in the group: a summoner and a cavilier.
As far as power creep, in the KM game that I am running the summoner is fine; however, the cavalier is a bit unbalanced as he multiclassed with rogue for a few levels. Although the early power creep has come back in line with the others recently due to the character violating his Order's Edict, so he needs to atone for his wrong doings.
im running KM, just starting mod 5
as the baddies dont have access to other books, neither do the players
each book adds power creep IMO
it also means a lot of the silly equipment, again IMO, that more books bring is kept out
Plus the mods are pretty complex enough without 'advanced' and 'ultimate' stuff being add to the 'basics'
I also play in SS and CC, where obviously more stuff has been allowed
APG introduces some nifty goodies that could warrant retooling the bad guys' stat blocks to suit your tastes.
- King Irovetti as an arcane duelist bard
- The Old Beldame as a Witch
- class level'd monsters given archetypes to fit their modus operandi better, such as the Misbegotten Troll in Chapter 6
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Half of my group is using APG classes, no issues.
Cavalier: Actually gets to take advantage of the mount due to wilderness combats. At 5th level saw our charging cavalier take out a troll with one hit. Fits kingdom building roles perfectly.
Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai: Not allowed for us. Just doesn't fit flavor of characters from Brevoy, and as path was pre-APG, not wanting to introduce firearms.
Inquisitor: With the appropriate deity, a nice fit. Our female player was turned away from Erastil's views on women and settled on Iomadae.
Summoner: Have a dual-classing synthesist / sorcerer. Can't say it's far from having any other arcane caster, despite any personal feelings I have about this class being OP.
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Half of my group is using APG classes, no issues.
Cavalier: Actually gets to take advantage of the mount due to wilderness combats. At 5th level saw our charging cavalier take out a troll with one hit. Fits kingdom building roles perfectly.
Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai: Not allowed for us. Just doesn't fit flavor of characters from Brevoy, and as path was pre-APG, not wanting to introduce firearms.
Inquisitor: With the appropriate deity, a nice fit. Our female player was turned away from Erastil's views on women and settled on Iomadae.
Summoner: Have a dual-classing synthesist / sorcerer. Can't say it's far from having any other arcane caster, despite any personal feelings I have about this class being OP.
I allowed APG and it hasn't been a problem I changed the ninja to dark skulker-- I just changed the lingo but it does exactly the same thing. I agree the flavor of Far East does not match Kingmaker but I like the Ninja. I changed Dovan to Ninja and he got away!
I allowed APG and it hasn't been a problem I changed the ninja to dark skulker-- I just changed the lingo but it does exactly the same thing. I agree the flavor of Far East does not match Kingmaker but I like the Ninja. I changed Dovan to Ninja and he got away!
Yup. Ninjas need not be Eastern/Tian; any sort of roguish figure with mystic powers (Daggermark assassins and Red Mantis immediately come to mind as evil examples) could conceivably have the class, and Dovan from Nisroch certainly fits; just don't let yourself by constrained by the name of the class.
As for the topic in general, I started the campaign with a cavalier/fighter/bard, and one of the cohorts is a healing-sort of witch; neither have caused any problems. It took a bit more work to allow a gunslinger into the campaign, but it was feasible. When in doubt, read the player's guide for an AP, and compare and use your own best judgment.
Overall, it should be less a issue of "this book came out after" and more a question of "does my table allow/ban this class". Cheers.
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I allowed APG and it hasn't been a problem I changed the ninja to dark skulker-- I just changed the lingo but it does exactly the same thing. I agree the flavor of Far East does not match Kingmaker but I like the Ninja. I changed Dovan to Ninja and he got away!Yup. Ninjas need not be Eastern/Tian; any sort of roguish figure with mystic powers (Daggermark assassins and Red Mantis immediately come to mind as evil examples) could conceivably have the class, and Dovan from Nisroch certainly fits; just don't let yourself by constrained by the name of the class.
As for the topic in general, I started the campaign with a cavalier/fighter/bard, and one of the cohorts is a healing-sort of witch; neither have caused any problems. It took a bit more work to allow a gunslinger into the campaign, but it was feasible. When in doubt, read the player's guide for an AP, and compare and use your own best judgment.
Overall, it should be less a issue of "this book came out after" and more a question of "does my table allow/ban this class". Cheers.
Ditto!
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I allowed APG and it hasn't been a problem I changed the ninja to dark skulker-- I just changed the lingo but it does exactly the same thing. I agree the flavor of Far East does not match Kingmaker but I like the Ninja. I changed Dovan to Ninja and he got away!
Dovan makes a great Ninja! I changed his class to that, too, in a different game, but I wish I'd had UC whenever my players took on the Stag Lord's Fort in KM. Dovan's clearly building toward Shadow Dancer, based on his feat selection, but the ninja powers seem to pay off much sooner. That said, he still survived in my game, but he had to beg, which he found unseemly. ;)
As for APG stuff in my game, my players love it. I have an alchemist, an oracle, a guide sword-and-board ranger/horizon walker who traded out spellcasting, and a sorcerer. The sorc is the only "vanilla" class in my game, and even he has the extra spells/level human sorcerer trait. The oracle will be taking a cavalier (an ex-bandit, no less!) as her cohort and is very excited about it.
Let's see...the sorcerer plays like a sorcerer. He specializes in battlefield control spells, throwing fire, and being able to convince anyone of anything. Nothing out of the ordinary there. The extra spells are great for any spontaneous caster.
The alchemist is an incredibly versatile character, hurling bombs of various types, healing the party between battles, brewing potions, crafting custom armor and jewelry for his friends, and making a tidy profit on the side selling alchemical items. He has fallen victim to the few Will saves the party has encountered, but is otherwise a very well-balanced and hardy character. There seem to be a fair amount of poison-based saves in this AP so far, and he's got insane bonuses to those. With a couple rounds to buff, his AC becomes something quite impressive, too, which can become frustrating, as he likes to pull the AoO aggro by attacking with bombs in melee range so the other casters can move about freely, but I can't fault sound tactics, really. The only other reason to take note of this class is that it is rather easy to completely crack out the output of alchemical goods/day. I don't find it gamebreaking (this player has wanted to play a crafter for years now, and finally has a game where it makes sense), but during a couple lean months, he literally generated a BP/month all by himself. Granted, that was working on every available day he wasn't tending to his responsibilities as treasurer, missing group meals, not getting to hang out with his girlfriend, etc. He roleplays it just fine, it doesn't disrupt our game, and I am happy to see him playing the character he wants to play. I merely point this out so you're not blindsided by the earning potential of this class.
The battle oracle initially suffered from being neither the healer nor the fighter she wanted to be, but around level 6 she really came into her own and became a serious powerhouse, wading into melee and dropping heals with equal aplomb. The party has lately become concerned with the fact that she can't prepare spells that are not needed often but are crucial when they are needed, like remove disease and remove curse, but the alchemist is picking up the slack in that department. She took the "Haunted" flaw, but we made it "flustered by fey" instead, and it has been a big part of the flavor of the game. I admit I had some concerns about a party without a wizard OR cleric, but my players love them some spontaneous casting, and it has served us well thus far.
Moving on to our extremely archetype-laden ranger, we arrive at what I consider to be one of my greater challenges of GMing KM. The Guide archetype is a GREAT choice for Kingmaker, since overland exploration in lieu of enclosed dungeons means many days have only one or two encounters. This makes it a very powerful choice. Add to that the fact that the player is very savvy about making a powerful build, and has a tendency to control the battlefield nearly as much as the sorc by battering his foes about with his shield. I have to give any meaningful foe max HP in order for it to withstand his brutal onslaught for more than a round or so. He didn't cheat, or even dump stat anything, so I really can't complain in that department. I don't feel bitter (most of the time, lol) but his feat selection, plus the buffs the oracle and alchemist often put on him, has made him a VERY tough customer. I'm looking forward to laying some more Will saves on him at the earliest convenience, but until then, I'll take pleasure in the fact that at least he couldn't knock over a mastodon... He is a bit of a glass cannon since he tends to use his shield as a weapon, rather than a protective item, but the oracle (and Diehard) keep him on his feet.
All in all, the APG (and other books) provide some amazing options for PCs. In the future, I will be more dilligent about combing those books for new little tricks I can teach the bad guys, feats I can swap in for a Lightning Reflexes or a Toughness. I really love those books (especially APG and UC), but I think there has been, in certain combinations, a bit of a power creep. Again, nothing to despair about, just something to be aware of. Or maybe my players are just that good. ;)
Dovan's clearly building toward Shadow Dancer
Uuuuh, nice one. He escaped in my game and I will bring him back later on.
BTW, I don't allow APG in my campaign. It's less of fear about a power creep happening (if the players can have new shiny toys, so does team evil), but it keeps the extra rules (as in feats, maneuvres, spells, etc) in check.
Ruyan.
