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What's the reasoning behind making all the other maneuver feats require this one?
It's only a prereq for maybe half the Improved Maneuver feats, if that. Others require Improved Unarmed Strike or Power Attack.
Which class could EFFECTIVELY take this and those maneuver feats?
The fighter, for one. I had 13 INT and Combat Expertise at level 1, and I'm currently 8th level and doing great (with 17 INT). To be blunt, if you can't make an effective fighter with 13 INT at level 1, then you simply still have more to learn about building fighters.
For the concept, wisdom seems more appropriate
Well, it is Combat Expertise, not Combat Intuition. ;)
and in THIS way, monks and clerics could at least benefit. I'm not asking (solely) because I'd like to make use of it as a prereq for other feats but for the reasoning behind making it based in INT.
Why are you looking at monks and cleric in particular? Just curious.
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Combat Expertise is for the Roy Greenhilt School of Fighters, not the Am Barbarian style of hit it until it breaks.
Bingo. And frankly, none of the feats with CE as a prereq are things Thog would really be using. (Remembering again - as so many people forget - that not all of the Improved Maneuver feats require CE.)
EDIT: If my at-a-glance count is correct, Core rules have CE, IUS, and PA each opening up exactly four feats/chains.
The maneuvers either fall under Combat Expertise or Power Attack. Take your pick.
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All those feats that require combat expertise are amazing, but 13 intelligence? That's a bit high for monks and fighters.
Why? Smart fighters fight smart, how else do you represent this? Intelligence in terms of quick wits and tactical acumen is valuable in a fight, and Combat Expertise is the only feat that actually attempts to represent this.
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All those feats that require combat expertise are amazing, but 13 intelligence? That's a bit high for monks and fighters. There are dex-based maneuver feats but that's circumvented with a dexterity build and taking the feat that switches STR for DEX for calculating CMB. But 13 intelligence? That's not a light investment, is it? Especially since the 13th point itself doesn't even lend itself to any modifiers. What's the reasoning behind it? What's the reasoning behind making all the other maneuver feats require this one? Which class could EFFECTIVELY take this and those maneuver feats?
For the concept, wisdom seems more appropriate and in THIS way, monks and clerics could at least benefit. I'm not asking (solely) because I'd like to make use of it as a prereq for other feats but for the reasoning behind making it based in INT.
Also remember that monks can get them without combat expertise:
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
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On a related topic, I like that there's a feat called Combat Expertise that requires some Intelligence and is a prereq for some feats that "feel" tactical.
If only the effect of the feat itself felt a little more... "expertise-y".
Trading offense for defense doesn't really say "intelligent combat" to me. You what I'd like? Something like this:
Combat Expertise
Prerequisites: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 competence bonus to either attack rolls or AC, decided by you each round at the start of your turn. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, increase this bonus by +1. However, the bonus granted by this feat can never exceed your INT modifier.
On a related topic, I like that there's a feat called Combat Expertise that requires some Intelligence and is a prereq for some feats that "feel" tactical.
If only the effect of the feat itself felt a little more... "expertise-y".
Trading offense for defense doesn't really say "intelligent combat" to me. You what I'd like? Something like this:
Combat Expertise
Prerequisites: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 competence bonus to either attack rolls or AC, decided by you each round at the start of your turn. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, increase this bonus by +1. However, the bonus granted by this feat can never exceed your INT modifier.
I'd been thinking of a houserule where CE applied your Int mod to CMB and CMD. I feel like it makes it seem like you're expertly combative while actually being useful and fitting into its role as the prereq for maneuver feats. Maybe the way you've done with the bonus every 4 levels capped by Int.
Nice way to give a use to int headband to fighters, but not much else, since the cap prevent it for being an actually primary stat. If your intent was to give fighters some free +hit, it fills his pourpose. If you wanted to make an INT based fighter viable, you got a lot more work to do.
Generally speaking, while i like the secondary abilities to be more whorty, i'm against gradually stripping an ability of his use (like dex pushers try to do with strengh). Fighter got to be strong, that should not be changed.
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Nice way to give a use to int headband to fighters, but not much else, since the cap prevent it for being an actually primary stat. If your intent was to give fighters some free +hit, it fills his pourpose. If you wanted to make an INT based fighter viable, you got a lot more work to do.
Generally speaking, while i like the secondary abilities to be more whorty, i'm against gradually stripping an ability of his use (like dex pushers try to do with strengh). Fighter got to be strong, that should not be changed.
Did you miss the part where I have 17 INT at 8th level?
Combat Expertise
Prerequisites: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 competence bonus to either attack rolls or AC, decided by you each round at the start of your turn. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, increase this bonus by +1. However, the bonus granted by this feat can never exceed your INT modifier.
Nice - me like!
How about, if we work with the feats as are:
Combat Finesse
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Int 13, Base attack bonus +4 or Monk level 4th.
Benefit: You gain your Int modifier to damage foes on a melee attack with a finesse weapon.
Improved Combat Expertise
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Int 13, Base attack bonus +12 or Monk level 12th.
Benefit: Your AC bonus from Combat Expertise increases by an amount equal to your Int modifier.
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I'm looking at monks since they're frontline combatants that would probably be able to effectively trip and disarm their foes (or at least that's one way I've always envisioned monks) and clerics because they're also a frontline fighter that relies less on strength than divine power and....yeah, now that I think about it I can't really see a cleric doing trip or disarm maneuvers....
Then you are in luck, as Monks can select both improved trip and improved disarm as bonus feats do not need combat expertise to get them.
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I'm looking at monks since they're frontline combatants that would probably be able to effectively trip and disarm their foes (or at least that's one way I've always envisioned monks)
As someone noted earlier, monks' bonus feats can skip prereqs.
You guys definitely offer some interesting arguments, but I have to ask, 17 intelligence? :O
Damn straight. I'm a PFS character, 8th level, haven't died yet. Meanwhile, our local Mr. Greatsword barbarian is something like 6th level and has died four times.
"I have an MBA you know."
Same here. The monk can take it and use it and then gain the Greater combat maneuvers as well as the Improved ones.
The nice thing about Combat Expertise is that a high-level fighter will almost always hit with his first blow anyway (BAB, strength, feats, magic items, and WEAPON TRAINING) -- so when you move up, you use Combat Expertise to give you a better chance against the opponent's full attack (he'll probably hit with his first blow, just like you, but maybe not a second or a third).
Then if you're in a position to full attack you do so on your turn, dropping the Combat Expertise. Plus you can combine that with fighting defensively and STILL usually hit with your first attack. At 8th level that's a +4 dodge bonus to AC. How many other feats give you that much protection?
Bingo.Keep in mind that feinting is not a combat maneuver, and cannot be incorporated into a full-attack routine.True, but an IMPROVED feint is a move action.
EDIT: Oh wait, you can't have a move action AND a full attack action, can you?
Unless you are a monk and have the Feinting Flurry feat which lets feint on the first attack of a Flurry of Blows.
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I'm looking at monks since they're frontline combatants that would probably be able to effectively trip and disarm their foes (or at least that's one way I've always envisioned monks)As someone noted earlier, monks' bonus feats can skip prereqs.
Sadly, the Greater maneuver feats are not monk bonus feats. So you can get Improved Trip, but then have to buy Combat Expertise before you can get Greater Trip.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Sadly, the Greater maneuver feats are not monk bonus feats. So you can get Improved Trip, but then have to buy Combat Expertise before you can get Greater Trip.I'm looking at monks since they're frontline combatants that would probably be able to effectively trip and disarm their foes (or at least that's one way I've always envisioned monks)As someone noted earlier, monks' bonus feats can skip prereqs.
Unless you're a Maneuver Master, IIRC.