Most of the time encounters seem pretty straight forward.
1. Roll initiative
2. Combatants act in initiative order
3. repeat at step 2
but actually initiative is more complex then that.
1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to being the first normal round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
A lot of this is hand waved by GMs to make the game go faster. And there is still a little vagueness. For instance when does combat begin?
If you open a door and there are enemy on the other side the answer is clear. Immediately no one get to act before initiative.
However if you are having a argument with a person in a bar when does combat begin? As soon as you the first punch in thrown or as soon as someone suggest that they might throw a punch?
This is something that I've never understood, but on further reading of the rules it seems that no attack ever happens outside of initiative. And that really make sense and is infact quite intuitive. I think that the part that isn't intuitive is.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents.
It seems that you also have to determine which characters are aware that there opponents are actually there opponents.
I've had to deal with a number of players say "I stab his character" does this stab happen in the surprise round and if so how do I determine if the other player knows that his/her once companion is now his/her enemy because the player knows but the character didn't know that they were going to do that?
Also if all attack happen in the surprise round and Diviner(wizards with Divination school) always act in the surprise round don't they have like spidey sense.
Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
Also a Babau Demon has inhuman patience and will stalk his pray for years or decades. Does that mean that when stalked by a Babau Demon a diviner would get to act even if he didn't even know there was an opponent. What would he know? "I'm in danger", "something's about to attack."
I know it's a long post but it's really a good set of questions.
I think you answered most of your own questions, particularly deciding who views whom as an opponent and when. In the case of, "I stab so-and-so" remember that unless they have a dagger out (which most people find threatening) they'll need quick draw to get an attack off during a surprise round, but however it turns out, most people usually assume those trying to stab them aren't being friendly.
I would rule a diviner would only "know" as far as when the surprise round begins -- which would begin once the Babau attempts an attack. Of course if the diviner has literally been stalked for years, I imagine there has been other times, and other abilities/spells, that may have given the diviner an inkling that something terrible is happening.
However if you are having a argument with a person in a bar when does combat begin? As soon as you the first punch in thrown or as soon as someone suggest that they might throw a punch?
It's a good set of questions, but there's not really an easily referenced rule that says how to do it.
Short answer: When the DM says so.
All of the following is opinion and not backed by the rules.
Generally, if people are not (yet) taking hostile actions, I'll stay out of init. As soon as someone takes a hostile action, inits are rolled, and people then act accordingly.
So, the party is rampaging through a dungeon, killing stuff. The enter a room with a man that is calmly reading a book, and he invites them in. If the party immediately attacks, treat as a normal encounter. If they pause to speak with him, then no init yet. They're all aware of each other, they're all expecting trouble, but until someone makes a hostile act (or a round-specific action), no inits. So lets say everyone is talking and the gnome gets bored and wants to stab the guy. As soon as the gnome commits to that action, inits are rolled. If it's something sneaky, a perception check might be in order (someone disguising a spell or trying to sleight of hand the dagger). Whoever beats the gnome in init (and made any relevant perception checks) can tell he is going to attack and can act accordingly. Lets say the man beats the gnome on init and spots his dagger, so he gets to act in the surprise round before the gnome and can cast hold person on him or whatever.
I think Forewarned works a lot better in a traditional ambush. Party gets attacked by hidden orcs. Everyone rolls inits, but the people who didn't make the perception check to spot the orcs don't get to act in the surprise round, except the diviner who gets to act even though he didn't spot them. So assuming every PC failed their check, the orcs jump out and go BLARGH GET EM, then inits, then actions. So while everyone should be surprised, the wizard still gets to act, and knows there's orcs attacking even if the orcs haven't acted yet because they rolled really bad inits.
It makes a lot less sense with an invisible stealthy foe. He sneaks up to stick someone, the wizard technically gets to act, but it doesn't make any sense for him to know what's happening.
It gets kind of weird sometimes, when a bunch of people get to act before the person who kicked off the combat. Also sometimes it's worse for someone to have a surprise round. Invisible guy is undetected, he would rather have a full round when he finally attacks rather than a surprise round. I just try to handle these in a way that makes sense and is fair for everyone involved.
Here's how I usually do it.
Step 1: Role initiative. Before anything else I push everyone into initiative. Just because your in initiative does not mean your in combat but it helps you as a GM keep things organized before it all hits the fan.
Step 2: Role perception if there is the possibility of surprise. yes...perception after initiative. Why? Because it says so and it prevents people from taking 10.
Step 3: The rest is just combat.
As far as diviners go: Yes they have spidey sense. That's why it's awesome. However, just because they know they are in danger and can act in the surprise round does not mean that they know where that danger is. They may not have made their perception check and so the question becomes....what do they do with their surprise action when they don't know where the enemy is? I usually throw a buff spell.
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I've had to look into this a lot because I'm running a PFS character with the Forewarned ability. He's currently a Fighter1/Wizard2, heading toward Eldritch Knight.
Here's how I understand it/would run it:
As soon as a character (PC or NPC, doesn't matter) intends to make a hostile action (one that would initiate combat), roll initiative. (Oh hey, that's like what the book says!)
Then, determine who's aware of their opponents. (Again, like the book says.) Obviously, this is a Perception check in the case of an ambush. In the case of the bored gnome/diplomacy-gone-south situation, I'd probably ask for Sense Motive checks to recognize the imminent hostile act before it happens. If you don't recognize the hostility until it's been done, that's represented by not acting until after the surprise round.
Start the surprise round. Everyone who's not surprised gets to act (hey look, I'm following the book again!). In the classic ambush, this is the attackers plus anyone whose Perception check succeeded, plus the Diviner. In the gnome incident, this is the impatient gnome, anyone who made their Sense Motive check, plus the Diviner.
I'm sure you all can take it from here.
Re: "What if the Diviner beats the ambushers in initiative and doesn't even know anything's wrong?"
We're talking about someone who sees the future, people. He may not know where the threat is coming from, but his magical foresight told him there was a threat. So he can absolutely act, it'll just be hard to decide what to do. Good options are to delay (going after the baddies in Surprise is still better than waiting until Round1) or to buff. My character carries a wand of shield in a spring-loaded wrist sheath (swift action to retrieve) for exactly this situation; if he goes first and doesn't see an enemy, out comes the wand.
I play my diviners as boyscouts in theses moments. As in "Be Prepared".
If my spidey sense goes off and I see nothing Its buff time. Nothing thows off an ambush quicker than a haste spell or some form of protecitve barrier.
Okay mr. Timothy. First, you have to remember that acting in the surprise does not awareness of the action make. The action can consist of "i just stand there like an idiot" to "i keep doing whatever the grick it was i was doing before my character was thrown into initiative"
Second, Remember that Characters are not aware of the initiative mechanic. They can react to concepts like "that guy gets to swing before me" but do not understand why. Likewise they can do things like ready actions, and delay, but have no awarenes of initiative or the fact thst they are "in initiative".
Saying "roll initiative" does not give players a ticket that says "your character is now aware there is combat"
So in order of the asking:
1, 2, and 3 : combat begins with the desire to perform a hostile action. "I stab so-and-so" shows intent, but does not grant the action. Both, or all, players roll init. and then get to act. So if there is a bar brawl, it does not just open with the first guy to throw a punch. Everyone gets an action. That action may be, as i said, nothing at all. Playes roll perception to see if they notice hostility. If the rogue has not drawn his dagger and resheathed it in somebody's back, then there is no hostility to percieve. Thus, high initiative may be punished. Players may say "I delay" but You can only do that if you can act in the surprise round. If only one player is aware there is a combat about to start, then they may be the only one to act.
4: The Diviner's ability is exactly like spider-sense. He gets a little spark thingey ove his head that says "crap is about to get real/hit the fan/go down" he gets his action, which means until he knows what is going on, his action may be "i delay" or "i cast shield"...
That is his problem, but you just make sure they drop a Fort-save-fireball on the party rogue before he actually gets his hostile action. Nobody knows where the enemy is before they know who the enemy is. If he fails his perception check to percieve the stab, then he may get his action, but again it cannot be against the rogue-type that made his stealth/sleight of hand check. If he is not aware of the hostility, he cannot take hostile action without risk of being considere the instgator.
Hope this is good enuff!
-Shane
@Grick a rogues first action in combat is often to just move adjacent to a target, especially if he is already stealthed/invisible. No attack needed
Goes like this: rogue disapears, perception checks to notice missing rogue, if anyone succeeds, they get to act in the surprise round with the missing rogue.
If Rogue gets low init. The rogue moves adjacent to target in surprise round. In the first full round if combat, the rogue can get his full attack, bu only if the target is after him...Rogue may not get a full attack action if the target moves in the first round of combat, but rogue still gets an Attack of Opportunity for the target leaving a threatened square.
Alternatively, if the rogue gets high init. He spends his surprise action moving adjacent to the target. Target cannot act in surprise round, and so it skips back to the top of initiative with the rogue, and the rogue gets a full attack action in the first normal round of combat.
So you may, as a rogue, want improved initiative, and traits, like reactionary, that give you more init. to mitigate crappy initiative checks ( which are dexterity based checks, and thus benefit from items like the luckstone that give bonuses to ability checks)
Only problem witn high init in the surprise round is if the target of your first round of attacks is the dumb jerk that had tons of ranks in perception and noticed you went "poof". He may, after you get adjacent, spen his surprise round action breaking contact with the invisible threat.
Just watch player and GM's who try to foul up your plan with unneccasary move actions in the surprise round. They should not now your rogue is adjacent to them and invisibly getting ready to shank them. Just be like "what possesd you character to move?" and call them out on it.
Saying "roll initiative" does not give players a ticket that says "your character is now aware there is combat"
A module we played recently pretty much opens up by underlining the above statement. If the players assume that the "roll initiative" request means they're being attacked, it's liable to end badly for them from a social standpoint, as the situation really doesn't warrant violence.
If your players ever get too trigger-happy when you ask them to roll initiative, find an excuse to have a lost child or a puppy trigger an initiative roll right before they blunder out from some bushes. : D
1, 2, and 3 : combat begins with the desire to perform a hostile action. "I stab so-and-so" shows intent, but does not grant the action. Both, or all, players roll init. and then get to act. So if there is a bar brawl, it does not just open with the first guy to throw a punch. Everyone gets an action. That action may be, as i said, nothing at all. Playes roll perception to see if they notice hostility. If the rogue has not drawn his dagger and resheathed it in somebody's back, then there is no hostility to percieve. Thus, high initiative may be punished. Players may say "I delay" but You can only do that if you can act in the surprise round. If only one player is aware there is a combat about to start, then they may be the only one to act.
4: The Diviner's ability is exactly like spider-sense. He gets a little spark thingey ove his head that says "crap is about to get real/hit the fan/go down" he gets his action, which means until he knows what is going on, his action may be "i delay" or "i cast shield"...
This was pretty much what I was thinking.
I suppose that I'm not sure what the DC would be for perception rolls. If a person is trying to bring there blade out sneaky then it's pretty easy (Sleight of Hand)but otherwise you wouldn't normally suspect a party member to attack you but they could technically at any moment.
Someone suggested using a Sense Motive check but they never mentioned what the DCs should be. I was thinking perhaps invert the Diplomacy DC.
Hostile----------0 being attacked by a hostile isn't surprising
Unfriendly------10 also not very surprising
Indifferent-----15 would be surprising
Friendly--------20 WTF
Helpful---------25 betraying traitor
Of course this has another problem of figuring out which of this counts.
"No, I've always been indifferent to his character."
Anyways.
Nice to hear from you, point nine repeating still equals one. :)
-Timothy