| Attrition |
Hey all - trust me, I looked through all the history, but still didn't get a definitive answer to this 'combo'. Doesn't seem really broken, but definitely useful and something to consider. I'm starting a new campaign, new to this system, and just one of the questions that I came up with.
So the question is, if I have the Magical Lineage trait, and apply the Meta-magic feat Merciful to a 1st level damaging spell, what exactly happens? Is it now considered a 0-level slot spell, and thus able to be cast unlimited?
On a different note, and since I have the game-masters here, can a quadruped Eidolon use wands/thieves' tools in its 'paws', thus being able to employ the UMD and Disable Device skills? Could it read a scroll? I know I've seen bears use sticks to snag honey, so my thought is yes, but I couldn't find anything definite on the subject.
Also, if an Eidolon jumps into an extra-dimensional-space (let's say a Handy's Haversack), is it then returned to its home plane? Does it take any of the 50%/75% max hp damage?
And finally, is there any way to add a saving throw to a spell that doesn't have one? I'm looking at the Jinxed Spell Meta-magic feat, and would like to add it to certain spells, but many of them don't require saving throws (for example, Magic Missile). Is there any ruling that allows me to 'weaken' a spell and require a saving throw even if previously there wasn't one needed?
Hey - thanks for all your help!! Please use only official sources if you can.
| StreamOfTheSky |
1. It's up for debate. Some claim cantrips are a special category and just being level 0 is not the same as being one. Or something. I disagree with that view, but also don't particularly care for negative spell level adjustments and would like to see the trait get errata.
2. If it got arms, it'd have hands to use. If it has no arms, it probably can't use items. Just pay for the arms. :)
3. No idea re: eidolons and extradimensional spaces.
4. Metamagic feats can add saves to spells. Off the top of my head, Dazing Spell (failed save leaves you dazed for (original spell level) rounds) says that if the spell has no save normally, the victims get a will save to resist it. I don't know if a save added to the spell from a feat effect counts for what you're looking to do.
Diego Rossi
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Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
Using metamagic don't change the level of the spell, only the spell slot used. Cantrips are 0-level spells, not simply "spell put into a 0 level slot". This mean that a 1st level spell metamagiched into a 0 level slot isn't a cantrip and can't be cast an unlimited number of times.
Eidolon and extradimensional spaces: as long as there is a open path on the same plane between the summoner and the eidolon the rules about distance should apply. When the extradimensional space is closed, unless both the summoner and the eidolon are in it, there is no path on the same plane and the eidolon is outside the life link range, so he return to his home plane.
| AvalonXQ |
PRD wrote:Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.PRD wrote:Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).Using metamagic don't change the level of the spell, only the spell slot used. Cantrips are 0-level spells, not simply "spell put into a 0 level slot". This mean that a 1st level spell metamagiched into a 0 level slot isn't a cantrip and can't be cast an unlimited number of times.
The problem with this argument is that it would imply I can put a heavily-metamagicked cantrip into a higher-level slot and still cast it as many times as I want.
ShadowcatX
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The problem with this argument is that it would imply I can put a heavily-metamagicked cantrip into a higher-level slot and still cast it as many times as I want.
This has already been discussed and is incorrect. Once you get into spell slots, they are fire and forget. Period. Only Cantrip slots are re-usable.
| UltimaGabe |
This has already been discussed and is incorrect. Once you get into spell slots, they are fire and forget. Period. Only Cantrip slots are re-usable.
Go back and read the post you just quoted. AvalonXQ was telling Diego Rossi that, according to his argument, it's the spell that determines whether it's unlimited casts, not the spell slot. (He was saying that a 1st-level spell put in a Cantrip slot doesn't actually make it a Cantrip, but by that same logic a Cantrip put into a non-Cantrip slot would still be a cantrip, and thus could be cast indefinitely- which, as you so bluntly pointed out, it clearly not the case.)
| Majuba |
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Still a 1st level spell slot regardless.
When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell's actual level.
There is no adjustment to make, so no benefit from Magical Lineage.
This is a fantastic trait, with a lot of awesome uses. Why do people insist on trying to break it?
Diego Rossi
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ShadowcatX wrote:This has already been discussed and is incorrect. Once you get into spell slots, they are fire and forget. Period. Only Cantrip slots are re-usable.Go back and read the post you just quoted. AvalonXQ was telling Diego Rossi that, according to his argument, it's the spell that determines whether it's unlimited casts, not the spell slot. (He was saying that a 1st-level spell put in a Cantrip slot doesn't actually make it a Cantrip, but by that same logic a Cantrip put into a non-Cantrip slot would still be a cantrip, and thus could be cast indefinitely- which, as you so bluntly pointed out, it clearly not the case.)
Yes, but her argument is wrong as there is a specific rule about that, introduced in the later books:
Cantrips: A summoner learns a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table 2–8 under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they may be cast any number of times per day. Cantrips prepared using other spell slots, due to metamagic feats, for example, consume spell slots as normally.
Someday, hopefully, Paizo will remember to add that in the CRB too.
| Attrition |
Eidolon and extradimensional spaces: as long as there is a open path on the same plane between the summoner and the eidolon the rules about distance should apply. When the extradimensional space is closed, unless both the summoner and the eidolon are in it, there is no path on the same plane and the eidolon is outside the life link range, so he return to his home plane.
My thoughts exactly - but does the Eidolon then incur the 50%/75% hp damage? Here is the appropriate text:
In addition, the eidolon and the summoner must remain
within 100 feet of one another for the eidolon to remain at
full strength. If the eidolon is beyond 100 feet but closer
than 1,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals
are reduced by 50%. If the eidolon is more than 1,000 feet
away but closer than 10,000 feet, its current and maximum
hit point totals are reduced by 75%. If the eidolon is more
than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its
home plane.
I would assume since a Dismissal of some sort only gets rid of the Eidolon, and doesn't seem to damage w/ the 50%/75% part, then if it jumps into a Haversack it would only be returned home, not damaged in the process. But I don't know for sure...
| Tels |
Folks, James is right on here.
If you use a higher level slot, for any reason, be it because it is modified with metamagic, or you just prepared it in a higher slot, it is consumed when cast, just like any other spell. Only when it uses a 0-level slot, it is not consumed.
There is some poor wording there that I am going to correct the next time I am able.
And please folks.. play nice.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This stops people from using 0-level spells in higher level slots an infinite number of times per day. However, it does add a little fuel to the fire that anything prepared in a 0-level spell slot is not consumed when cast.
From this thread.