Question about Kitsune's Bite Attack

[Clovis15]

The rules say that a Kitsune's Bite Attack counts as secondary attack if they're holding a weapon, I get the logic if they're trying to dual attack in a given round. However, assuming they never use their manufactured weapon that round - and only bite - then wouldn't their bite still be the primary weapon. I have someone insisting that they have to take penalties to the attack roll for bite - as if it was an off hand weapon - so long as they're holding anything at all, even if that's the only thing they do that turn.

He's using this part here from the Dragon Empire Primer:

A kitsune has a bite attack in its natural form. This bite does a base of 1d4 points of damage on a hit. This is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the kitsune wields a manufactured weapon.

I am arguing here that wielding means using, not merely happening to be touching with the character's hand.

[Azreal423]

Its usually a debate on the meaning.
Generally the consensus I get from the forums and my players is Wield = uses.

[blackbloodtroll]

No, it functions just like any other bite attack, and the text just reminds you. Attack with the natural attack only, it is primary, and suffers no penalty. Attack with a manufactured weapon, and the natural attack is secondary, and has a -5 penalty. Note, I said attack with a manufactured weapon. For those unsure, please read the natural attack section of the bestiary.

[BigNorseWolf]

Wield = use. If the kitsune is holding a long sword in one hand and the damsel in distress in other his bite becomes primary, funcions at full BAB and deals str +1.5 damage.

[Wombats]

Bumping this for further clarification for a new player:

So if a Ninja Kitsune is utilizing a TWF feat and strikes twice in combat (primary and secondary), is Bite added as a third (a "secondary secondary") attack? Or does Bite only activate if the ninja is just wielding one weapon? If I'm reading this right, Bite can be applied as a third strike... and with TWF, Finesse, and a high Dex? Oh my God?

[Archaeik]

Åsgeir of Southmoor wrote:

Bumping this for further clarification for a new player:

So if a Ninja Kitsune is utilizing a TWF feat and strikes twice in combat (primary and secondary), is Bite added as a third (a "secondary secondary") attack? Or does Bite only activate if the ninja is just wielding one weapon? If I'm reading this right, Bite can be applied as a third strike... and with TWF, Finesse, and a high Dex? Oh my God?

Natural weapons are not subject to TWF rules in any way. Nor does there seem to be any attacks at -10.

Natural Attacks

Quote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Their natural attacks will be made at -5(or -2 w/ Multiattack) and 1/2 Str

ps. BTW, TWF with 1 additional natural attack is the least of your worries. Natural attack builds abound, whether they are slick enough to stack iteratives in there too is a matter of taste.

[Wombats]

Gracias!