That I don't know the answers to and I know you guys can answer practically instantly:
1) Traps. They have a perception check to notice them that often states something like DC30; Trigger: Proxity (or maybe Location).
So, my question is, who rolls the die to beat that DC 30 perception and at what point? 5 feet away? 10 feet?
2) Disease: Consider the dire rat - Disease (Ex) Filth fever: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 11; onset 1d3 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Dex damage and 1d3 Con damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Character gets bit. Character rolls or GM rolls for the character? Failure means that in 1 -> 3 days the character takes damage and this happens each day thereafter (frequency 1 day), right? But how often do they get to save? If they save once, do they still take the damage and keep taking damage until the second save?
3) What does it mean for a Fortitude save with a DC 25 to be a Charisma-based DC?
4) 3D combat (water/sky) - what's the easiest way to get a handle on the rules and representation on the map for this (now i'm just looking for advice)?
That I don't know the answers to and I know you guys can answer practically instantly:
1) Traps. They have a perception check to notice them that often states something like DC30; Trigger: Proxity (or maybe Location).
So, my question is, who rolls the die to beat that DC 30 perception and at what point? 5 feet away? 10 feet?
2) Disease: Consider the dire rat - Disease (Ex) Filth fever: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 11; onset 1d3 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Dex damage and 1d3 Con damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Character gets bit. Character rolls or GM rolls for the character? Failure means that in 1 -> 3 days the character takes damage and this happens each day thereafter (frequency 1 day), right? But how often do they get to save? If they save once, do they still take the damage and keep taking damage until the second save?
3) What does it mean for a Fortitude save with a DC 25 to be a Charisma-based DC?
4) 3D combat (water/sky) - what's the easiest way to get a handle on the rules and representation on the map for this (now i'm just looking for advice)?
These are the answers as I understand them and use when I am GM for our group.
1) Usually GM rolls (I have a sheat with their skill check mods) approx 5 ft before the trap would be set off.
2) Not entirely sure on this. But usually I will roll the first time since they won't know if they got the disease. Every day after onset, the PC rolls a check. If fails, takes the damage. If succeeds, does not. After 2 succeeds in a row PC has recovered.
3) If the thing causing the save has a modifier to it's charisma the DC will go up or down. For example if a demon has a sonic scream that stunns for 2d4 rounds unless succeed at fort save DC 25 charisma based. If the demon drinks a potion that gives it a +4 to charisma before it screams it will now me DC 27. This is because the demon's ability modifier for charisma went up by 2.
4) no idea.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
That I don't know the answers to and I know you guys can answer practically instantly:
1) Traps. They have a perception check to notice them that often states something like DC30; Trigger: Proxity (or maybe Location).
So, my question is, who rolls the die to beat that DC 30 perception and at what point? 5 feet away? 10 feet?
To find something hidden, a player must spend a move action to search. Normal range modifiers to the Perception DC apply (as described in the Perception skill description). The player makes the check, as normal. If their attention is not divided, they may take 10.
The Trap Spotter rogue talent changes this. If a character with Trap Spotter comes within 10ft of a trap, the GM secretly makes a perception check to notice it.
2) Disease: Consider the dire rat - Disease (Ex) Filth fever: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 11; onset 1d3 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Dex damage and 1d3 Con damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Character gets bit. Character rolls or GM rolls for the character? Failure means that in 1 -> 3 days the character takes damage and this happens each day thereafter (frequency 1 day), right? But how often do they get to save? If they save once, do they still take the damage and keep taking damage until the second save?
The PC makes their own saving throw. They save at the time they're exposed to the disease (such as when they are bitten). If they make it, they never contract the disease in the first place (same with poisons). If they fail, then you wait for the onset time to elapse. Once it does, you start ticking through the frequency. At each interval (in your example, each day), they have to make a new save. If they fail, they take the listed effect (often ability damage, as in your example). I *think* that if you make your save but need another to cure, you don't take the effects at that interval, but I'm not sure.
3) What does it mean for a Fortitude save with a DC 25 to be a Charisma-based DC?
That means that the DC of that poison/effect is based on the enemy's CHA. If you lower their CHA, the DC goes down, etc.
4) The way we have handled it in my main gaming group is we use coins to represent altitude. If the character is 5 feet off the ground, we place him atop a nickle. If he is 20 feet off the ground, we put him atop a quarter. If you use any type of dry-erase grid, you can just note the character's altitude next to him in marker. reach and range work the same vertically as horizontally. If one character is directly above another, we usually just place them next to each other, and agree to use our imaginations.
If you are trying to figure out range at a diagonal, we usually ignore the vertical aspect until the character is further away vertically than he is horizontally - this is purely for speed and ease-of-use. I suppose you could be calculating the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle every time, but that seems very cumbersome.
1) Traps. They have a perception check to notice them that often states something like DC30; Trigger: Proxity (or maybe Location).
So, my question is, who rolls the die to beat that DC 30 perception and at what point? 5 feet away? 10 feet?
If they're not actively searching (or have the Trap Spotter rogue talent, which gives the rogue an auto-scan at 10'), there's no distance at which they auto-detect -- without searching, they walk into the trap.
2) Disease: Consider the dire rat - Disease (Ex) Filth fever: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 11; onset 1d3 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Dex damage and 1d3 Con damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Character gets bit. Character rolls or GM rolls for the character? Failure means that in 1 -> 3 days the character takes damage and this happens each day thereafter (frequency 1 day), right? But how often do they get to save? If they save once, do they still take the damage and keep taking damage until the second save?
I usually have the player roll, but without telling them why -- however, either one works. Each day after the onset, they roll a save. On success, nothing happens. On save, they take d3 Con and d3 Dex damage. After 2 days in a row of successful saving, the disease ends.
3) What does it mean for a Fortitude save with a DC 25 to be a Charisma-based DC?
It means the attack is charisma-based by the creature that has it -- so if the creature's Charisma is boosted or reduced (eg - Eagle's Splendour, cha-drain, you levelling up the monster), the DC for the effect changes accordingly. (So, in your example, the +4 Cha from Eagle's Splendour would increase the DC against that attack to 27)
4) 3D combat (water/sky) - what's the easiest way to get a handle on the rules and representation on the map for this (now i'm just looking for advice)?
For upward combat, I've used small stacked blocks with a counter on them to show the elevation -- basically, they represent 10' of altitude. However, that really only matters when you're dealing with interacting with the ground -- once you're way, way up, it's (sadly) impossible to map -- but at the same time, you don't have terrain, so relative locations and direction are all you really need.
It looks like the other questions got answers already so I'll take this.
4) 3D combat (water/sky) - what's the easiest way to get a handle on the rules and representation on the map for this (now i'm just looking for advice)?
Most often in groups I play with we continue to use the same mat, we just use a die next to (or under) the figure to represent altitude (or depth). Calculate distances as normal for 2D then add 1/2 of difference in altitude. This is usually good enough.
If you need help in visualization, remember a battle mat doesn't have to always be a x-y grid, you can use it as x-z. In other words put the miniatures on their sides so you are viewing the scene from the side instead of from above.This mostly comes into play when someone casts a fireball and places a template on the battlemat and claims everyone inside the template is affected. That is only true if they are all at the same altitude. Fireballs are after all spheres not cylinders. When you show them the 'side view' they usually understand that characters 20' apart horizontally but 30' apart in altitude aren't both affected.
Guys, thanks, so much. That DC question bugged me for a long time, you have no idea.
So, just a verification:
You guys are seriously saying that no one can ever just passively find a trap unless they have a special ability that says so? Like a wire across the path trap that brings the two logs together to crush the itinerant? He will never just "spot the wire"??? If so, then, wow... bit of a game mechanic oversight, I think.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
So, just a verification:
You guys are seriously saying that no one can ever just passively find a trap unless they have a special ability that says so? Like a wire across the path trap that brings the two logs together to crush the itinerant? He will never just "spot the wire"??? If so, then, wow... bit of a game mechanic oversight, I think.
Don't worry, it's on purpose.
Frankly, any adventurer worth his salt should be checking for traps anyway, at least in places that are likely to have them (doorways, etc). Those without the sense to take time for trap-searching are the ones whose bodies get looted by better adventurers a few years later. ;)
|
4) 3D combat (water/sky) - what's the easiest way to get a handle on the rules and representation on the map for this (now i'm just looking for advice)?
Here are a few suggestions that we use:
1) The empty cubes that dice come in.2) We also use Alea Tools magnetic discs.
3) And these I have been wanting to purchase and try out but haven't had the chance Combat Tiers Basic Set by Tinkered Tactics.
So, just a verification:
You guys are seriously saying that no one can ever just passively find a trap unless they have a special ability that says so? Like a wire across the path trap that brings the two logs together to crush the itinerant? He will never just "spot the wire"??? If so, then, wow... bit of a game mechanic oversight, I think.
Don't worry, it's on purpose.
Frankly, any adventurer worth his salt should be checking for traps anyway, at least in places that are likely to have them (doorways, etc). Those without the sense to take time for trap-searching are the ones whose bodies get looted by better adventurers a few years later. ;)
I hear you, but I don't agree. That's like walking through a dungeon in combat-time (carefully, making search checks every 5 feet) so you can't be ambushed or caught flat-footed. One of the AP modules has a trap in the middle of a hallway without any real "reason" to have it there. I accept the Rogue-deal and I'm fine with my chars just blundering into it, I just don't agree with the notion that a char has to be wary to the point of absurdity at all times. Being surprised is part of the fun of this game. If they can't relax, you can't surprise them. If you can't relax, you can't be surprised.
Here’s a post I made before:
The trapfinders ability to perceive and then Disable traps is not to be taken as mundane. And trap MUST be able to be disarmed with a good enough skill and roll. Mind you, maybe the rogue has to have the skills maxed out and roll a 20 but it has to be possible.
The rogue should be able to spot the triggering mechanism, even if it’s magic. There’s no distance modifier as the rogue is going to be able to perceive the triggering edge, not the actual trap. For example, if there’s a trip wire on the floor that sets off a ballista 1000 yards away, the rogue is spotting the tripwire, not the ballista.
The same goes for the trap. The rogue doesn’t have to get to the fireball launcher to bypass the trap. He should, by means of a roll, be able to find a way to not trigger the trap. Again, taking the example of the ballista, it doesn’t make any difference that the ballista is 1000 yards away on the other side of a chasm, the rogue disarms the tripwire.
Now, yes, the DM is certainly allowed to try to make the party come up with a creative solution, one that doesn’t involve the rogue making a high roll with a maxed out skill. But if the PLAYERS can’t do so, the CHARACTERS should be able to do so by means of rolling excellent skill checks
Guys, thanks, so much. That DC question bugged me for a long time, you have no idea.
So, just a verification:
You guys are seriously saying that no one can ever just passively find a trap unless they have a special ability that says so? Like a wire across the path trap that brings the two logs together to crush the itinerant? He will never just "spot the wire"??? If so, then, wow... bit of a game mechanic oversight, I think.
Yes. Because the assumption is that traps are hidden -- and hidden objects are only detected if they're being searched for... or, if you're a specially-trained person (which is to say, a rogue with Trap Spotter). [Unlike a hidden perso0, a hidden object isn't shifting, moving, making noise or doing anything else to give itself away...]
A non-hidden trap doesn't need a perception DC -- it's in the open, and so, like any other unhidden item, it has a DC of 0 to see, so it's automatic...
Unless, of course that charcter is being rushed (eg - fleeing a nasty dragon, for instance) and in the dark (which triggers unfavourable conditions and distracted, bringing the DC up to 7).
I've played with some to use the house rule that purely passive perception is effectively a "take 0", so that you can auto-detect anything with a DC below your perception modifier.... but RAW, nope.
Tilnar, you have given me a great idea for traps - have non-hidden traps in a dark hallway leading out of a room where either an obviously much too powerful enemy has entered, or which must be fled due to environmental hazard like spreading fire or a room filling with water rapidly. The pc's run from the room, then I roll a perception check for each behind the GM screen, adding penalties for darkness and distraction. If they perceive it, it is easy to bypass, but otherwise, they trigger the trap. Great way to have non-rogues participate in the trap-finding schtick, on an impromptu basis.
Just remember, too, per the rules anyone can find a trap if they're looking for it, that's just a perception roll -- trapfinding (the rogue ability) really just gives the rogue the ability to disarm magical traps. (Trap Spotter, on the other hand, is just massively useful)
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
2) Does Rapid Shot stack with shurikens in a FOB?
Yar!
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
I'm only going to touch on this question (because I'm at work and have limited resources/time).
This quick answer is simply: options. It's not about being equal to or better than a base ability, it's about having the option at all (and it is an option, as it doesn't replace the ability to give yourself a dodge bonus).
Mechanically, the bonus granted by that ability is a shield bonus. You still get to use your shield bonus in situations where you would be denied your dex (and thus: dodge) bonuses to AC. So in those rare scenarios, having this option can be a life saver.
That is what gives. ^_^
~P
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
2) Does Rapid Shot stack with shurikens in a FOB?
1) Seems like the shield bonus would stack with the normal dodge bonus, as long as you spent a ki point for each
2) Yes, you can use FoB and Rapid Shot at the same time. You would apply the -2 penalty to all attacks for the round to the FoB attack modifier.
|
|
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
2) Does Rapid Shot stack with shurikens in a FOB?1) Seems like the shield bonus would stack with the normal dodge bonus, as long as you spent a ki point for each
2) Yes, you can use FoB and Rapid Shot at the same time. You would apply the -2 penalty to all attacks for the round to the FoB attack modifier.
both are swift actions
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
2) Does Rapid Shot stack with shurikens in a FOB?1) Seems like the shield bonus would stack with the normal dodge bonus, as long as you spent a ki point for each
2) Yes, you can use FoB and Rapid Shot at the same time. You would apply the -2 penalty to all attacks for the round to the FoB attack modifier.
both are swift actions
Actually, it is only a swift action to increase the shield bonus to +4. The +2 bonus is simply the result of not moving during the turn. I do have to admit, I made a poor assumption that it would cost a point from the ki pool, as the +2 shield bonus does not cost any ki.
Yar!
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
I'm only going to touch on this question (because I'm at work and have limited resources/time).
This quick answer is simply: options. It's not about being equal to or better than a base ability, it's about having the option at all (and it is an option, as it doesn't replace the ability to give yourself a dodge bonus).
Mechanically, the bonus granted by that ability is a shield bonus. You still get to use your shield bonus in situations where you would be denied your dex (and thus: dodge) bonuses to AC. So in those rare scenarios, having this option can be a life saver.
That is what gives. ^_^
~P
That's the first time that ability has actually made sense to me.
|
|
Actually, it is only a swift action to increase the shield bonus to +4. The +2 bonus is simply the result of not moving during the turn. I do have to admit, I made a poor assumption that it would cost a point from the ki pool, as the +2 shield bonus does not cost any ki.Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
1) Seems like the shield bonus would stack with the normal dodge bonus, as long as you spent a ki point for each
both are swift actions
Spending a ki point for anything is a swift action unless i missed something?
Spending a ki point for anything is a swift action unless i missed something?Actually, it is only a swift action to increase the shield bonus to +4. The +2 bonus is simply the result of not moving during the turn. I do have to admit, I made a poor assumption that it would cost a point from the ki pool, as the +2 shield bonus does not cost any ki.Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
1) Seems like the shield bonus would stack with the normal dodge bonus, as long as you spent a ki point for each
both are swift actions
You do not need to spend any ki to get the +2 shield bonus. You only need to not move during your turn.
Yar!
Bobson: I'm glad to be able to help clarify.
Flashohol: Many ki powers are swift, but it is not the rule. Some of them are standard action uses (wholeness of body, for example), and some are move actions (abundant step, for example). So it really depends on the particular use of ki.
However, the answer to the OP's question regarding this is handled with what I posted above. It's not so much about "stacking" different uses of ki, but in having options for dealing with various situations in the game.
~P
Yar!
Ok, great guys, thanks. Here's a couple of new questions specifically about the Monk:
1) Monk of the Sacred Mountain says spending 1 ki point as a swift action allows for the Iron Defense to improve by +2. However, the monk can already gain a +4 dodge bonus by expending 1 ki point as a swift action. What gives?
I'm only going to touch on this question (because I'm at work and have limited resources/time).
This quick answer is simply: options. It's not about being equal to or better than a base ability, it's about having the option at all (and it is an option, as it doesn't replace the ability to give yourself a dodge bonus).
Mechanically, the bonus granted by that ability is a shield bonus. You still get to use your shield bonus in situations where you would be denied your dex (and thus: dodge) bonuses to AC. So in those rare scenarios, having this option can be a life saver.
That is what gives. ^_^
~P
That makes sense. Thanks.
So as not to start another thread, I've got another question that keeps bugging me. Someone please explain strength ability checks to me, please?
I've got a door that's stuck. It requires a strength check of, say 16, to open. Now, as I understand it, to open this door, one must roll a d20 and add one's strength modifier to it (let's say it's +3). If I understand correctly, then that means that 60% of the time the character will fail to open the door. But why? Do the character's muscles fluctuate between atrophy and hypertrophy regularly? How can I reasonably put myself under a 225lb bench press bar if I can fail half the time to make my strength check? How does this work with carrying capacity and pull capacity and all of that?
I get agility checks (sort of), because there's simply a chance for failure (you're not as successful sometimes as you are other times). Same for intelligence and wisdom (sometimes the brain works well and sometimes it doesn't, thus a chance for failure) and charisma (sometimes you're the witty or intimidating guy you want to be, sometimes your speech falls flat). But Constitution and Strength checks rarely make sense to me (either you can lift the weight or you can't, either you can hold your breath for a specific length of time or you can't). Sure, there are external factors involved - did you work out yesterday? did you eat right today?, but that's the exception... modifiers, if you want to call it anything.
Someone help me understand, please.
I think this is a case of "don't think too hard about it, it's just how the rules work."
I agree with Mabven. They work that way because the rules say they do. There is no logical answer that can really be given.
Not a rule, but how I would do it--> I do wish strength checks were more consistent though. Certain things should be an autopass, and other things should be possible but at the limit of your strength. These things would require a strength score.
I assume this question has been asked about before, then?
The idea or logic behind it has been questioned, but how it works has not been questioned.
With all checks you just roll the dice. The "why" is more of a behind the scenes theory discussion.
Yeah, it is hard to rationalize that I can be Conan strength and can't open a door that my buddy who looks like Erkle can open. I roll a 5 on my check and get a 10. Fail. I then roll again (3) and have an 8. Fail. I then roll again (10 an average try) and have a 15 and still fail. He rolls a 17 takes a -1 and the door opens. Huh?
Ok, so you rationalize... something just worked for him, rare case of strangeness. Maybe you loosened it up :P. Ok, sure. But in one AP, every door in prison place is stuck and requires a strength check. So this kind of thing happens frequently. It's stupid and retarded and I can't explain it to my players.
So as not to start another thread, I've got another question that keeps bugging me. Someone please explain strength ability checks to me, please?
I've got a door that's stuck. It requires a strength check of, say 16, to open. Now, as I understand it, to open this door, one must roll a d20 and add one's strength modifier to it (let's say it's +3). If I understand correctly, then that means that 60% of the time the character will fail to open the door. But why? Do the character's muscles fluctuate between atrophy and hypertrophy regularly? How can I reasonably put myself under a 225lb bench press bar if I can fail half the time to make my strength check? How does this work with carrying capacity and pull capacity and all of that?
To answer your bench press question:
That's not a str-check really, but rather would be tied directly to your carrying capacity I guess. Twice your heavy load I figure.Alternatively if you want to make it a check, the amount you can comfortably and reliably bench-press would be what you can do by taking 10. Sure you can try to press a higher weight, but that may not work always. Sometimes you just have a bad day.
As for the door: Well yes a DC 16 door is not that easily to break open. Sometimes you kick the wrong spot and the force doesn't quite transfer, or it just needs two or three kicks to properly break the bar on the other side.
I think I'd rather hear, "Don't think too deeply on it, just go with the mechanics." These arguments are hard to not respond to...
If 10 represents a DC that an average man can accomplish half the time, then you're saying that an average man can lift, say 150lb max and struggles with it. If I've got 20 strength, I should be benching something like 300lb (20 strength should be a lot more than that, but let's not quibble). At no point should I have difficulty benching 225 lb where an average man might. That's just ridiculous. A stuck door is stuck with a certain amount of resistance that can be measured in pounds. It's the same thing.
The mechanics are what they are. If you want to make it make sense that the character with a str of 20 failed while the one with the str of 10 succeeded then fluff it up as the weaker character hitting the door in the right spot.
Leverage is just as important as strength in some situations.
No a DC 10 is something an average man can reliably do without too much trouble, as long as he's not distracted (aka as long as he can take 10).
An average man with 10 str can easily lift 100 lbs over his head and lift 200 lbs while staggering. Not 50% of the time or so, that's what he can lift.
If you have 20 str you can lift 400 lbs easily and 800 while staggering.
But 20 str is about as far from an average man as an IQ of 180 is from an average mind.
Bench-pressing should give you favorible conditions in both cases, but that's up to the GM.
A door with a DC 16 is not merely a bit stuck. It's locked and bolted most likely, good luck just pushing a bit against it to open it.
Let me point out a stuck door isn't DC 16 -- at DC 16 you're taking out a locked door (and a pretty good one) - and doing it without a crowbar, ram or other thing that would grant you a circumstance bonus.
Also, remember, the guy with 20 str can take 10 and pass a DC 15 str check -- as many as are happening, all day long, so long as nothing's distracting him.
I agree, though, that the straight + modifier does seem weak when being used on straight ability checks -- literally, the difference between succeeding at a task for someone with 18 str and 8 str is 25% -- despite the massive gulf between their carrying capacity -- but it's easy enough to house rule it one way or another.
No a DC 10 is something an average man can reliably do without too much trouble, as long as he's not distracted (aka as long as he can take 10).
That is only true so long as it's something he can retry. Opening a door, for instance, is something he can retry. Taking 10 represents taking his average, so you're quibbling over 1 DC. This is why I said 50% of the time, forgetting the Take 10 rule: I should have said DC 11 to deny this rejoinder. So if DC 10 is something he can reliably do without too much trouble, what is DC 11? He can't Take 10 to succeed and he will fail 50% of his checks.
An average man with 10 str can easily lift 100 lbs over his head and lift 200 lbs while staggering. Not 50% of the time or so, that's what he can lift.
If you have 20 str you can lift 400 lbs easily and 800 while staggering.
But 20 str is about as far from an average man as an IQ of 180 is from an average mind.
Exactly. They show the man with 20 Str as being 4x as strong as the "average man". But imagine the strongman event at the local fair (hit the mark and make the slider rise to the top). Strength check - the chance that the 10 Str man can beat the 20 Str man should be practically non-existent. But the difference is only 25% as someone else pointed out. That means the 10 Str man only has to roll 5 higher than the 20 Str man to match him. 25% difference on the chances, 4x as strong.
So, let's take a Str 15 man and pit him against a simple door (DC 13). He needs to roll an 11. If he rolls a 3, a 7, a 10, and 9 before finally rolling a 14, how do you describe it to him? What about the next time it happens (3 doors later) and the time after that (1 door later)? Why even bother making the strength checks if he's likely to get it eventually?
Finally, you get a Str 9 wizard and the Str 15 Fighter. The Fighter tries to open the door above and rolls as described above when failing. The Str 9 Wizard shows him up with a roll of 14. Luck and circumstance makes a weakling stronger than a strong man?
Bench-pressing should give you favorible conditions in both cases, but that's up to the GM.
A door with a DC 16 is not merely a bit stuck. It's locked and bolted most likely, good luck just pushing a bit against it to open it.
According to you, going from DC 10 to DC 16 is pretty radical. A DC 10 is something an average man can do reliably without too much trouble. But an average man is not likely to burst a locked and bolted door, much less a lot of them. But according to you, he has a 25% chance of doing it. Which means an average of 4 attempts per door.
A door with a DC 18 is considered a "good door". A door with a DC 13 is considered a "simple door". The AP to which I referred used DC 13 (not 16 as I had remembered) and described the doors as follows:
"Doors on this level are made of wood and hang rotten on their hinges. Opening a door requires a DC 13 Strength check made as a Standard action, with success causing the old door to fall from its hinges."
So, our Str 15 guy can't Take 10 and has to make 50%+ rolls to open it. Sure, on average, 2 attempts. But every door is, on average, 2 attempts. The Str 10 guy needs 13 or 60%+, even though the other guy is twice as strong.
I suppose it only matters during combat rounds. All other times we can just say, "The strong guys opens the door while the weak guy struggles." But again, it doesn't make sense, at all, for every door to have a chance to open or not if they all provide, basically, the same resistance. They should open or not based upon whether the character is strong enough to pull it open. This isn't a skill. It's purely mechanical with no real "factors" (unless you make them up) involved to make it go wrong. There's no judgments that have to be made. You just set and pull.
Let me point out a stuck door isn't DC 16 -- at DC 16 you're taking out a locked door (and a pretty good one) - and doing it without a crowbar, ram or other thing that would grant you a circumstance bonus.
Also, remember, the guy with 20 str can take 10 and pass a DC 15 str check -- as many as are happening, all day long, so long as nothing's distracting him.
I agree, though, that the straight + modifier does seem weak when being used on straight ability checks -- literally, the difference between succeeding at a task for someone with 18 str and 8 str is 25% -- despite the massive gulf between their carrying capacity -- but it's easy enough to house rule it one way or another.
You're both saying "locked". There is no assumption of locked or bolted. The numbers to which you're referring is for breaking/bursting doors that are shut - locked is irrelevant. A good door is a DC 18. Simple as that. What makes a Str 10 thief able to burst a door that a Str 17 Warrior just failed to burst? He weakened it, right?
Let's say a druid sets up a strongman competition and wood shapes two perfectly exact "good doors". Puts them in the stone doorways created by stone shaping. The Str 17 warrior sets and attempts to burst his door first. Fails to make the required roll. He tries two more times but fails to roll the 15+ he needs to break the door. Now the Str 10 thief rolls an 18 first thing. The warrior is 2.6x stronger than the thief. That's incredibly stronger. But he can't apply his strength, in 3 attempts, as well as the much much weaker thief? These "physics" are clearly nonsensical regardless of how it's rationalized.
The mechanics are what they are. If you want to make it make sense that the character with a str of 20 failed while the one with the str of 10 succeeded then fluff it up as the weaker character hitting the door in the right spot.
Leverage is just as important as strength in some situations.
That's only a decent excuse a few times, maybe. After that, it's ridiculous. I'm fine with people just saying, "That's the mechanics. Don't worry about the 'why'." It's another thing for people to make silly arguments. I was really hoping someone would simply tell me I understood the mechanics wrong.
Thanks, wraith
First of, take 10 is an average result that you can take always as long as you're not distracted. It simulates the things you can do with routine effort in a quiet environment. If you can retry or not does not matter for take 10. That's take 20.
Second, you're starting to take this way to serious. It's a game. And yes, it's also possible that the level 10 fighter rolls 5 natural 1s in a row and misses my level 1 commoner butt and I roll 5 critical hits and kill him. That's possible however very unlikely, but it's something that can happen in a d20 game. It's not a perfect simulation of the real world.
Yes a straight up ability check usually does not do most things justice. And yes, especially Str checks seem weird sometimes because thats an attribute that can actually be measured by how much you can carry and then easily compared to the real world. Its alot more abstract with the other attributes.
I don't know if the description of the doors you made is actually a good one for DC 13, but I would guess in this instance the hinges are more or less rusted and won't move easily anymore. So you either have to burst the door to pieces or actually force the rusted hinges to move. And that's not necessarily as easy as you seem to think it is.
Houserule proposition for Str checks: A DC 13 str-check will automatically succeed by anyone with 13 strength, while those with lower str have to make the DC 13 check. Same for all other DCs, so DC 16 needs 16 str, etc.
I dunno if that will cause problems at some point though. I wouldn't advice doing that with other attributes though.
First of, take 10 is an average result that you can take always as long as you're not distracted. It simulates the things you can do with routine effort in a quiet environment. If you can retry or not does not matter for take 10. That's take 20.
Quite right.
Second, you're starting to take this way to serious.
No, you're just providing an unnecessary and inadequate defense of something you admit:
Yes a straight up ability check usually does not do most things justice. And yes, especially Str checks seem weird sometimes because thats an attribute that can actually be measured by how much you can carry and then easily compared to the real world. Its alot more abstract with the other attributes.
I'm just not capable of letting it pass, I guess.
But, I would also suggest that Constitution checks are like this. Most everything else is circumstance/judgment-based (aim-coordination, knowledge, wisdom, charisma-[force of]personality) and that's where error and the die-roll should come in.
I don't know if the description of the doors you made is actually a good one for DC 13, but I would guess in this instance the hinges are more or less rusted and won't move easily anymore. So you either have to burst the door to pieces or actually force the rusted hinges to move. And that's not necessarily as easy as you seem to think it is.
Yeah, I had the impression of really heavy doors swollen and sagging in their doorways with rusty hinges and all that.
Houserule proposition for Str checks: A DC 13 str-check will automatically succeed by anyone with 13 strength, while those with lower str have to make the DC 13 check. Same for all other DCs, so DC 16 needs 16 str, etc.
I dunno if that will cause problems at some point though. I wouldn't advice doing that with other attributes though.
That's actually an interesting idea. I'll have to give that some thought. Thanks for the idea. Maybe something like a Take Str (like Take 10 only using the Str score as the value [without modifier]). Assuming no distractions, no need to roll, if you just want to Take Str.