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I'm creating a Dwarven cleric, who will be switch hitting between buffing and melee. Is there any good reason to not take the Dwarf alternate racial trait from the APG for Magic Resistance.
The swap of +2 to all saves vs Spells, Spell Like Abilities, and Poison for 5+HD in SR seems pretty decent. Especially as the cleric I can heal myself and see to my own buffs without worry of having to over come my own SR, I only suffer if an ally attempts to buff me.
So any reason not to make the swap?
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5 + HD of SR means it's only about 25% of the time will your SR kick in against equal level opponents. Against higher level opponents, it's less than 25% +2 to all saves against spells, SLAs, and poison is much stronger.
Although you can buff yourself with spells, others cannot do so without the SR kicking in. If you actually go into negatives, others still have to bypass your SR if they want to use a spell or SLA to restore HP.
I personally do not like SR unless it's the 10 or 11 + HD version like the noble drow and other races that might have it.
Also with hero points or luck domain you can force reroll on failed save. Spell penetration roll against you isn't your roll by the book.
The swap of +2 to all saves vs Spells, Spell Like Abilities, and Poison for 5+HD in SR seems pretty decent. Especially as the cleric I can heal myself and see to my own buffs without worry of having to over come my own SR, I only suffer if an ally attempts to buff me.
This is the crux of it. Normally SR is bad because you might fail to receive in combat healing or buffs. Thus it can be bad for most characters. In your case, however, you will be providing most of your own in combat buffs and healing so it's much less of an issue. Note that potions say the drinker is the caster. Instruct the party should you go into the negatives to pour a healing potion down your throat, and your bases are basically covered.
So, I'd say go for it. Get the SR.
5 + HD of SR means it's only about 25% of the time will your SR kick in against equal level opponents. Against higher level opponents, it's less than 25% +2 to all saves against spells, SLAs, and poison is much stronger.
Although you can buff yourself with spells, others cannot do so without the SR kicking in. If you actually go into negatives, others still have to bypass your SR if they want to use a spell or SLA to restore HP.
I personally do not like SR unless it's the 10 or 11 + HD version like the noble drow and other races that might have it.
Not knowing the numbers, so I'll use yours, that's a 25% chance of taking 0 Damage from a Fireball spell as opposed to a +2 (10%) chance to take 1/2 Damage from it. That makes it quite a bit better, especially as a Dwarf Cleric, your Reflex Saves aren't going to be a whole lot better with that +2. Or a 25% chance of taking no damage from a Magic Missle (as opposed to not getting a Save).
Also you can voluntarily lower your own Spell Resistance, so friendly spells cast on you out of combat shouldn't have to worry about it either.
I won't go so far as to say its completely better for the SR (since in part it depends how much Poison use there is), but for a Dwarven Cleric, it should be better overall than the Bonus to Saves.
Not knowing the numbers, so I'll use yours, that's a 25% chance of taking 0 Damage from a Fireball spell as opposed to a +2 (10%) chance to take 1/2 Damage from it. That makes it quite a bit better, especially as a Dwarf Cleric, your Reflex Saves aren't going to be a whole lot better with that +2. Or a 25% chance of taking no damage from a Magic Missle (as opposed to not getting a Save).
Also you can voluntarily lower your own Spell Resistance, so friendly spells cast on you out of combat shouldn't have to worry about it either.
You can lower your spell resistance to accept an incoming spell, but it takes a standard action. Which you would of had to have taken on the turn before your ally cast the spell. And when unconscious and bleeding to death, with the only thing standing between you and death is the clerics cure spell, you don't want to have that spell fail because of your spell resistance.
You can lower your spell resistance to accept an incoming spell, but it takes a standard action. Which you would of had to have taken on the turn before your ally cast the spell. And when unconscious and bleeding to death, with the only thing standing between you and death is the clerics cure spell, you don't want to have that spell fail because of your spell resistance.Not knowing the numbers, so I'll use yours, that's a 25% chance of taking 0 Damage from a Fireball spell as opposed to a +2 (10%) chance to take 1/2 Damage from it. That makes it quite a bit better, especially as a Dwarf Cleric, your Reflex Saves aren't going to be a whole lot better with that +2. Or a 25% chance of taking no damage from a Magic Missle (as opposed to not getting a Save).
Also you can voluntarily lower your own Spell Resistance, so friendly spells cast on you out of combat shouldn't have to worry about it either.
its important to note that it appears he IS the cleric so if he drops the party is most likely in hot water already.
If your allies have a cure potion to get you back on your feet just in case that shouldn't be much of a problem since you are the caster for the purposes of a potion. Even if they force feed you it I suppose.
pros and cons, but I like the flavor alot.
EDIT: accidental thread necromancy, I was googling on some advice on this trait and forgot how I got carried away...
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It's never going to be worth it.
One: spell resistance will kill you more often than help you without house rules. A standard action to lower SR makes it so you cannot take healing spells when needed.
Two: you are giving up a +2 to saves that can easily be +5 to saves with a feat and a trait. That is going to be far more useful than a low SR than any level appropriate spell caster will easily beat.
No, never ever worth it. Not even 3 years after the fact.
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It really depends on play style.
If you frequently have party members casting spells on each other during combat then the SR can be a serious action economy problem.
However, plenty of groups do fine with buffs and healing before/after combat... finding that an extra character on offense (rather than casting healing spells) during combat reduces the total amount of healing needed. Taking a standard action to lower SR while NOT in combat is no big deal, and thus the benefits are very much worthwhile.
It really depends on play style.
If you frequently have party members casting spells on each other during combat then the SR can be a serious action economy problem.
However, plenty of groups do fine with buffs and healing before/after combat... finding that an extra character on offense (rather than casting healing spells) during combat reduces the total amount of healing needed. Taking a standard action to lower SR while NOT in combat is no big deal, and thus the benefits are very much worthwhile.
In this case.
No. Not even a little worth it.
The ability is not that bad, plenty of ways to cure and plenty do not check for spell resistance.
It can give a 'save' for some spells or SLA's that do not usually give a save that is pretty cool and quite a few monsters will have spells and abilities that are lower level than you are. Against the big bad guy it is most likely less useful since he is typically higher level than the PC's.
+2 saves overall are better in my opinion, but it would be a nice enough not to feel completely boned by the swap.
Your 5th level dwarf still has, at best, a 50/50 shot of ignoring the 1st level mages spell.
Congratulations?
It really depends on play style.
If you frequently have party members casting spells on each other during combat then the SR can be a serious action economy problem.
However, plenty of groups do fine with buffs and healing before/after combat... finding that an extra character on offense (rather than casting healing spells) during combat reduces the total amount of healing needed. Taking a standard action to lower SR while NOT in combat is no big deal, and thus the benefits are very much worthwhile.
In this case.
No. Not even a little worth it.
Play a Dwarf Cleric. Nobody ever casts spells on me in combat except me. SR would never be a problem. In cases where I have gone down, a potion, not heal spell, is used.
The idea that SR is going to "get you killed" is so utterly niche as to be irrelevant.
That said, there have been occasions where a +2 racial bonus to saves has made a difference between making the DC on a nasty effect when I rolled low.
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Play a Dwarf Cleric. Nobody ever casts spells on me in combat except me. SR would never be a problem. In cases where I have gone down, a potion, not heal spell, is used.
The idea that SR is going to "get you killed" is so utterly niche as to be irrelevant.
That said, there have been occasions where a +2 racial bonus to saves has made a difference between making the DC on a nasty effect when I rolled low.
You still have to break your own SR to be effected by any buffs you would cast on yourself...things like Prayer, Bless, Divine Power/Favor, Righteous Might.
You may need that emergency Heal spell as well.
Go the route I said with Trait+Feat and take that +2 to a +5 and guarantee more passed Saving throws. You will get a lot more mileage out of Hardy. Especially when Hardy effects 70-80% of all saves you will ever make.
Lets not forget Clerics can use the Spell Spell Resistance and get more SR than the racial offers and can be picked and chosen when you cast it. Instead of always on.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
That covers half the spells I listed.
Bless, Prayer, Blessing of Fervor...the main group buffs that you also depend on to be competent in combat target multiple creatures and are not You/Personal spells. Bless, prayer and Blessing of Fervor are AoE and not targeting spells.
Blessing of Fervor includes you. It's not an AOE spell, it's a targeted spell.
Any spell you cast on yourself is a spell that targets yourself. The exception is if there is no target period, such as Fireball. (So if you had fireball on your spell list you could cast it on yourself and resist it).
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
Play a Dwarf Cleric. Nobody ever casts spells on me in combat except me. SR would never be a problem. In cases where I have gone down, a potion, not heal spell, is used.
The idea that SR is going to "get you killed" is so utterly niche as to be irrelevant.
That said, there have been occasions where a +2 racial bonus to saves has made a difference between making the DC on a nasty effect when I rolled low.
I have. More than you know.
And a Dwarf Ranger, and a Dwarf Druid, and flirted with the DM annoying dwarven barbarian.
You'll note I never mentioned once about casting spells on myself. Though I should try and avoid quick responses in the future, it's just that I tend to rant.
I'm more concerned about how it's an awful ability that is weak against enemies that matter and inconvenient for my group. We're talking about combat, where things like raw numbers matter when the phantasmal killer pays a visit.
Let's elaborate.
Remember when I said a first level mage has a 50/50 shot of beating your SR at level 5?
That was me being nice.
It's actually closer to 55/45.
Because in reality a 1st level mage of any type just needs to roll a 9. Assuming they're not an elf who got cheeky with the spell penetration in which case they just need a 5 or better.
Arguably you could say that you can also roll a save to go with it. Or that your SR would still do better than the saves against a spell like magic missile. Both fair points, and we'll be getting to those shortly.
But, spells like magic missile aren't usually very scary.
However a 1st level mage does have spells like grease at their disposal. Grease can be bad. Particularly if you're a cleric since it's doubtful your raw acrobatics or reflex save will be that high.
Entangle can be worse. So much worse.
SR will help you against neither.
So we have spell that SR would help but saves would not.
And a few spells saves would help but SR would not.
Now if we left this comparison alone it would seem that the comparison is roughly even. We'd have to delve deep and see how many spells of every level are SR:NO SAVE vs. NO SR:SAVE. Then determine which of that group is more dangerous. Safe money is on the NO SR:SAVE groups since most SR:NO SAVE spells tend to be buffs, but I could be wrong on that.
Now what about SR:SAVE? We have lots of those. So who benefits more?
Let's give our theoretical every mage a 16 in their main stat.
So a 14 DC for our save on 1st level spells. Without including ability modifiers a 5th level hardy dwarf will have +6 on their good save.
So, before ability modifiers or feats you need to roll an 8 to beat that save. 10 if you went with SR and they have to roll a 9 to beat it.
That's about a 95% chance you'll ignore the spell from the combination of the two. That's great.
To beat that on raw saves you'd need a +14 on that save. We can get close but not 95% close. And no higher than 95%.
Let's head to the middle of that spectrum.
CL5, 3rd level spells.
Now we're in fireball territory.
DC bumps to 16.
Hardy dwarf needs an 11 on that save. 45% chance to resist it.
SR dorf needs a 13 to beat that save. So a 35% chance to resist it with saves. 60% between SR and saves. Overall it's still not bad.
With Steelsoul and glory of old however the gap closes much quicker. We're at about 60% chance of resisting that spell on saves.
Now let's get mean. CL9, 5th level spells.
To put things in perspective that's well within the expected CR range of a 5th level group to handle. It's a hard encounter, no doubt, but not an altogether rare one to come up against.
Our main stat jumps up to at least 18 on the npc as it's starting to get unlikely it will remain fixed at 16 by this point. Our CL will be at 9 still, though it's even less likely you won't run into npc's who won't have spell penetration seeing as it is now much more valuable as SR starts to become more common for critters at that level.
This is where real fear sets in.
DC19, CL9.
The SR dorf is screwed. His SR is auto bypassed since rolling a 1 isn. If that caster is an elf, or just took spell penetration than he doesn't even need to roll since you can't critically fail a caster level check.
His chances at resisting the spell are bleak. 25% chance.
Hardy dwarf is beating out at 35% chance. Steel Soul and Glory of Old boost this up to 50%.
Now my math is likely off (I always screw up percentages) but I think that about shows the point unless I'm grossly off.
SR at this point has a nasty diminishing return due to the fact that CL scales much faster, and is very easy to invest into in terms of beating out spell penetration.
But, basically to me, you're saying that in a game where the most dangerous opponents are typically creatures with several levels (i.e. CL) on you I should trade out a +2-5 on saving throws which benefit me at all ends, for an ability that benefits me greatly at the bottom, middling to none near my level, and not at all near the top. All while inconveniencing my group, who may need to do things like scrape me off the floor after I've been kangaroo moused by the transmuter with a sense of humor.
And you're telling me to play a cleric.
If you want to play a cleric that resists spells you have a vast toolbox at your disposal. Protection from evil alone will render many dangerous spells worthless against you. Deathward and freedom of movement let you laugh off a number of nasty abilities. Not talking about spells that give raw saves, raw immunities, raw sr, or incidentally make you immune to spells through their effects.
Playing a cleric doesn't make your innate SR better, it helps highlight why you don't need it.
And ultimately SR5+level doesn't get you killed because your group suddenly has a hard time healing you. It's because the ability is meaningless where it matters most versus an ability that, well, actually makes a difference as you pointed out.
The spell resistance will actually work well vs minions and other minor threats. It will give you some benefit vs things around your own power level. But vs the BBEG it is nearly useless. This is especially true at high level.
A 10th level wizard makes a poor threat for a group of 10th level characters especially if they have their own 10th level wizard. So what does the GM do if he wants a wizard as the BBEG, he makes the wizard higher level. Now you are facing a 15th level wizard. Now throw in spell penetration and maybe even greater spell penetration and your spell resistance is useless.
The bonus on the saving throws will be more useful vs the BBEG than the spell resistance. The DC for the saving throws can get pretty high. The +2 may not be that impressive, but every little bit helps. Also as several other people have pointed out you can increase this number with Steel Soul and Glory of old. As a dwarf cleric your fortitude and will save are going to be good. As I pointed out earlier the spell resistance does not work well vs the BBEG, but saves do.
Look at it this way what is more important, being able to ignore the command spell of the temple acolyte, or being able to resist the major curse of the high priest? If you are worried about the acolyte take the spell resistance, but if you are more concerned with the high priest take the saves.