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Are there further criteria besides 15 tables to get race boons rather than other con boons? From the list Mike posted it seems that half the cons did not get race boons for whatever reason.
It is kind of disingenuous to tell people to "just organize a con" if they want the same chance to get a special race if there are some other criteria besides just being "con sized" to get that support for an event.
For example, if I were to organize a virtual con, with a chatroom or a voice chat server where players can interact before dropping down to special channels for VTT games in order to allow people who play PFS in isolated places to have an actual, shared play experience (I'd like to do whatever I can from where I am to help the PFS community for giving me a way to game). Would this kind of event get race boons included in the support if it were >15 tables? Or is there some other tier of events which can get races?
Fair enough. You asked for it, you get it :-) Since it comes across as disingenuous, I will publish a strict set of guidelines today of what size conventions receive what kind and how many boons so there won't be any questions whatsoever. This also means this list will be concrete and there will be no deviation from it for any reason. Higher attended cons will receive race boons and general boons, lower attended cons and game days will receive general boons only.
A strict set of guidelines that you are asking for unfortunately takes away my ability to make judgement calls and exceptions. For example, if a con that met the requirement for racial boons, has a couple of tables taken away from them by the convention through no fault of the PFS coordinator, unfortunately I will be bound by this strict guideline and will have to follow it so it doesn't appear I'm showing favoritism toward one con over the other. But, I do appreciate the fact people want the guidelines layed out so I will provide those guidelines.
Also, online events will not qualify for boons of any sort.
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Could you define what you mean by "higher attended cons". If you are looking at the biggest of big cons then I'm slightly concerned that European based cons won't get any boons of this nature due to the fact that European based cons are smaller than the big US ones.
hopefully it'll be something that doesn't screw over the smaller local cons, but when people want a white and black world, this is what happens ... I prefer to live in a purplish grey haze that allows me to be flexible ... this black and white stuff is for the birds :(
no offense meant to Mike with this post as he's just responding to what is apparently wanted.
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Could you define what you mean by "higher attended cons". If you are looking at the biggest of big cons then I'm slightly concerned that European based cons won't get any boons of this nature due to the fact that European based cons are smaller than the big US ones.
I plan to define them a little later today. If people want clear definitions as to what cons qualify for race boons and what cons don't, I can't make exceptions for different parts of the world. Where before, I could take the top 20-25% of attended cons in every geographical region on the globe and send race boons to those conventions regardless of size, as long as they met the 15 table minimum. With a defined list that is being asked for here, I will be bound to stick by that list. With the current system I have been using, everyone in every region at least had a chance to attend some of the larger regional cons in their part of the world and receive a race boon. Now, since it is being asked for, all conventions everywhere will be bound by a strict set of guidelines.
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Withe current system I have been using, everyone in every region at least had a chance to attend some of the larger regional cons and receive a race boon. Now, since it is being asked for, all conventions everywhere will be bound by a strict set of guidelines.
I suspect this is the opposite of the spirit of what those asking for more boons have in mind. I think the geographical common sense makes sense.
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I suspect this is the opposite of the spirit of what those asking for more boons have in mind. I think the geographical common sense makes sense.
A strict set of guidelines that you are asking for unfortunately takes away my ability to make judgement calls and exceptions.
It was stated above that I was being disingenuous. That is the last thing I wanted to be portrayed as. I am very hands on with every PFS con coordinator and try to provide the best convention support I can in both boons and product support. If people want a strict set of guidelines so there are no grey areas, I can certainly oblige.
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Withe current system I have been using, everyone in every region at least had a chance to attend some of the larger regional cons and receive a race boon. Now, since it is being asked for, all conventions everywhere will be bound by a strict set of guidelines.I suspect this is the opposite of the spirit of what those asking for more boons have in mind. I think the geographical common sense makes sense.
Basically this. At this point I am satisfied to know that yes there exist additional, previously unpublished criteria for tiers of boon support. Less satisfied to know that online events can't get support, but I can see a few legitimate stumbling blocks to distributing boons electronically.
As a note, I was not calling out the PSFOP leadership as disingenuous. You guys are brilliantly transparent and accepting of discussion. I was talking about all the people who jump into discussion of race boons telling people in remote places that "all they have to do" is launch and big event.
These grey areas are necessary to keep PFS from stratifying even further into those who circulate among the convention circuit and the people in weird places out in the stix.
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Here is the thing ...
If he has to publish a guidelines, he is bound by that guidelines, there are no more exceptions, no deviations, no nothing.
If Mike decides 15 minimum to get a con boon, 20 to get two general boons, 30 to get three, 40 to get 1 race boon and 4 general boons, He can't deviate. So, if the largest annual con in Scandinavia only gets 18 tables, He is bound by what is published and they get one general boon. If he sent them several boons including a race boon, then the convention in Texas that had 35 tables is going to be pissed a smaller con received race boons when they didn't.
It is very frustrating when people don't think past their own little area of the world and back Paizo into a corner and demand they make a decision. When people ask for something because they live in a small area, they are screwing everyone, and screwing themselves even more.
Can we now perhaps leave the racial boons, boons in general and other types of complaining, nagging and b%+#+ing alone for awhile and just let us all play the game?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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If people want a strict set of guidelines so there are no grey areas, I can certainly oblige.
But not all people do. You're never going to be able to satisfy 100% of the player base, let alone 100% of the forum posters. And if you ask me I think making such a ruling would upset far more people than it would satisfy.
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I think the issue here isn't the normal conventions that were going to exist regardless of whether Paizo supplied PFS boons or not. The people organizing those conventions probably think of the Paizo boons as icing on the cake or a nice perk to help entice players to their convention.
The people that are getting antsy and asking for this sort of thing (meaning a black and white definition of what will get a racial boon) are the players that are trying to organize an event for the sole purpose of getting themselves a racial boon. Let's say random player "Joe Bob" wants to play an exotic race and knows that he may get one if he organizes 15 tables at his local gaming store. He does so and requests Paizo support. Mike obliges and sends him two general player boons to distribute at his event and a third general boon to give each GM. None of the boons sent are racial boons. Since "Joe Bob" organized this entire event for the sole purpose of getting himself a racial boon, he is pissed because he only received general boons and demands to know what he needs to organize in order to get the racial boon. "Joe Bob" wants a "Black and White" guideline so that he can organize an event that gets him his racial boon, it is all he cares about, organizing a gaming event is only the means to an end. Is "Joe Bob" the sort of player we want to cater the convention boon support rules to, in my opinion no, he is not.
If the goal of the racial boons is to reward GMs and players for attending organized conventions, I would think Mike using is best judgement is the most appropriate. If the racial boons are intended to encourage players to go out and organize events solely to earn a specific reward then the Black and White guidelines are probably the most appropriate. If the boons are intended to do a little of both things, it may be best for Mike to continue to use his best judgement as he has been doing.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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If the goal of the racial boons is to reward GMs and players for attending organized conventions, I would think Mike using is best judgement is the most appropriate. If the racial boons are intended to encourage players to go out and organize events solely to earn a specific reward then the Black and White guidelines are probably the most appropriate. If the boons are intended to do a little of both things, it may be best for Mike to continue to use his best judgement as he has been doing.
Yup.
If a black and white guideline is laid out, the effect will be to lower the number of "large" events that are held, as it will actually be a discouraging factor.
I appreciate the fact that people are after some sort of affirmation.
However, I'm confused that, in this instance, the thought process is to cater to the minority of people asking for the guideline. The minority of players are also asking for replay, and they aren't being catered to. What has prompted this sudden shift to paying attention to the squeaky wheel? The attitude shift concerns me.
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If the goal of the racial boons is to reward GMs and players for attending organized conventions, I would think Mike using is best judgement is the most appropriate. If the racial boons are intended to encourage players to go out and organize events solely to earn a specific reward then the Black and White guidelines are probably the most appropriate. If the boons are intended to do a little of both things, it may be best for Mike to continue to use his best judgement as he has been doing.Yup.
If a black and white guideline is laid out, the effect will be to lower the number of "large" events that are held, as it will actually be a discouraging factor.
I appreciate the fact that people are after some sort of affirmation.
However, I'm confused that, in this instance, the thought process is to cater to the minority of people asking for the guideline. The minority of players are also asking for replay, and they aren't being catered to. What has prompted this sudden shift to paying attention to the squeaky wheel? The attitude shift concerns me.
I'm going to assume that Mike is trying to make a point that if you're squeaky and want to ask for something that affects your area, you had better be prepared for the backlash with out it affects the big picture..
I'm sure Mike and Mark gets tired of us being squeaky and is tryng to show us what could happen...
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unfortunately I will be bound by this strict guideline and will have to follow it so it doesn't appear I'm showing favoritism toward one con over the other. But, I do appreciate the fact people want the guidelines layed out so I will provide those guidelines.
No thanks. Don't give in to the rules lawyers on this one.
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If the goal of the racial boons is to reward GMs and players for attending organized conventions, I would think Mike using is best judgement is the most appropriate. If the racial boons are intended to encourage players to go out and organize events solely to earn a specific reward then the Black and White guidelines are probably the most appropriate. If the boons are intended to do a little of both things, it may be best for Mike to continue to use his best judgement as he has been doing.Yup.
If a black and white guideline is laid out, the effect will be to lower the number of "large" events that are held, as it will actually be a discouraging factor.
I appreciate the fact that people are after some sort of affirmation.
However, I'm confused that, in this instance, the thought process is to cater to the minority of people asking for the guideline. The minority of players are also asking for replay, and they aren't being catered to. What has prompted this sudden shift to paying attention to the squeaky wheel? The attitude shift concerns me.
I'm going to assume that Mike is trying to make a point that if you're squeaky and want to ask for something that affects your area, you had better be prepared for the backlash with out it affects the big picture..
I'm sure Mike and Mark gets tired of us being squeaky and is tryng to show us what could happen...
Yep, I am hoping that this is Mike trying to make a point and that he is not actually making out these guidelines right now, as his earlier post suggested. I was involved in a relatively small (~17 PFS tables as well as numerous LFR and other gaming/board game tables) local convention of this weekend that went great!
I know the GMs really appreciated their boons (myself included) as did the 4 players that managed to snag one of the player boons.
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I'm sure Mike and Mark gets tired of us being squeaky and is tryng to show us what could happen...If the goal of the racial boons is to reward GMs and players for attending organized conventions, I would think Mike using is best judgement is the most appropriate. If the racial boons are intended to encourage players to go out and organize events solely to earn a specific reward then the Black and White guidelines are probably the most appropriate. If the boons are intended to do a little of both things, it may be best for Mike to continue to use his best judgement as he has been doing.Yup.
If a black and white guideline is laid out, the effect will be to lower the number of "large" events that are held, as it will actually be a discouraging factor.
I appreciate the fact that people are after some sort of affirmation.
However, I'm confused that, in this instance, the thought process is to cater to the minority of people asking for the guideline. The minority of players are also asking for replay, and they aren't being catered to. What has prompted this sudden shift to paying attention to the squeaky wheel? The attitude shift concerns me.
Yep, I am hoping that this is Mike trying to make a point and that he is not actually making out these guidelines right now, as his earlier post suggested. I was involved in a relatively small (~17 PFS tables as well as numerous LFR and other gaming/board game tables) local convention of this weekend that went great!
I know the GMs really appreciated their boons (myself included) as did the 4 players that managed to snag one of the player boons.
Exactly .. for each person that complains that they aren't getting a boon, there are 10 GMs that that is the only "payment" they received fo giving up their weekend to run games. While I can see both sides and yeah I'm sure it does suck to not be able to get boons (I'll be that way this summer with P-con boons and Gencon boons as I'm not able to go). On the flip side of it sucking is that it is a way to reward people and it does get people to step up and help at some of these smaller conventions that might not always be able to find GMs.
Again, those that only look at their small area and not as the big picture are hurting the whole of the community by their squeakiness. I'm with you on hoping that Mike is not drafting up these new rules
I'm going to assume that Mike is trying to make a point that if you're squeaky and want to ask for something that affects your area, you had better be prepared for the backlash with out it affects the big picture..
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'll just chime in here and say that I'm very much against any rule for boon distribution other than "Mike's discretion".
The point of rules is to keep persons within a group behaving similarly to each other, to establish consistency where not everyone's judgment will be the same. The point of having a single head of an organization is to reap the benefits of good judgment due to not having to worry about being consistent with parallel powers.
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I'll just chime in here and say that I'm very much against any rule for boon distribution other than "Mike's discretion".
The point of rules is to keep persons within a group behaving similarly to each other, to establish consistency where not everyone's judgment will be the same. The point of having a single head of an organization is to reap the benefits of good judgment due to not having to worry about being consistent with parallel powers.
+1 from me
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Actually, I would be in favor of him making the guidelines to stop all the bickering on these boards and show people what happens when you get what you wish for...
While the first part of this is commendable (wishing to stop the bickering), I take issue with the second part. Responding harshly to prove a point would be an option if it only punished those responsible for the bickering, but an over-arcing rule that negatively (in my opinion) affects the campaign as a whole out of frustration is not the answer (again, in my opinion). Mike has come off as a level-headed campaign coordinator, and whatever decision he makes, I hope it isn't out of frustration just to shut up the people bickering.
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I don t see anyone asking for guidelines,
I see people asking for a path to the boons that doesn't require a large, centralized player base that only rewards one type of play. Someone starting up a local PFS group of 1-2 one tables a week for a year is every bit as helpful to growing PFS as one big one time bash.
Edit: please note: Im not arguing this for myself. I live in the hudson valley of NY. While PFS around here that could be called local is nil, there are a number of cons 1-2 hours away in multiple directions.
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Mike quoted the poster who is asking for guidelines :)
There was one person who implied that Mike was being disingenuous by not having firm guidelines (but actually meant to direct the term towards others who indicate to just start up their own convention). So I don’t see a bunch of folk clamoring for it. I see one or maybe two people who are particularly vocal, while the rest of us are ostensibly ok with the status quo.
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Actually, I would be in favor of him making the guidelines to stop all the bickering on these boards and show people what happens when you get what you wish for...
emphasis mine
It's not a punishment. It's a clear set of guidelines that was asked for.
I believe it would be an attempt to punish them for asking for something that would have such a substantial impact on everyone. And based on your previous post that I've quoted here, I got the impression you realize it would be a punishment as well.
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Maybe not in your area Andrew, but a bunch of people in my area are clamoring for it!
Ah, ok. I suppose I was more referring to only a handful of posters that really seem to want to know how it works. But yeah, we aren’t getting much of a furor up here in the frosty north for extra races or exact knowledge of how the race boons get handed out.
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The guidelines:
Mike rolls a d20 and adds the number of tables there'll be at the con. If he beats a DC 20 check, they get some boons. For every 4 points past 20, they get one extra type of boon.
Bam!
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Shockingly, even when they're a VC. Someone who, I would have thought, would want the best for the Pathfinder Society, at large.
Understand my concern, now?
Just like a Senator a VC has a constituency they need to worry about, and make sure their wishes a presented to the governing body of the PFS, or they will be voted out during the next election...wait...
Oh yeah I forgot our VOs are Tyrants put into power by Overlord Mike and brainwashed by the head of the Pope!
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Again .. .people only look at their area and not the big-picture area ..Shockingly, even when they're a VC. Someone who, I would have thought, would want the best for the Pathfinder Society, at large.
Understand my concern, now?
I don't want to start a thing, here, and I certainly don't want to put words in Andrew's mouth, but as a VL, I'd just like to point out that I *do* want the best for the Campaign - but I have *no idea* what the state of PFS play is outside of my region.
I hear bits and pieces through conversations on these boards, of course, but the give and take and casual conversations that I have with players in Toronto is how I find out what people think up here. I don't have those interactions with players in, say, California.
In my opinion, it's unfair to assume that just because a VO is not aware of what the feeling is outside of their area, that they're not sensitive to those opinions or that they're only interested in representing the opinions of their own local players.
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Again .. .people only look at their area and not the big-picture area ..Shockingly, even when they're a VC. Someone who, I would have thought, would want the best for the Pathfinder Society, at large.
Understand my concern, now?
I don't want to start a thing, here, and I certainly don't want to put words in Andrew's mouth, but as a VL, I'd just like to point out that I *do* want the best for the Campaign - but I have *no idea* what the state of PFS play is outside of my region.
I hear bits and pieces through conversations on these boards, of course, but the give and take and casual conversations that I have with players in Toronto is how I find out what people think up here. I don't have those interactions with players in, say, California.
In my opinion, it's unfair to assume that just because a VO is not aware of what the feeling is outside of their area, that they're not sensitive to those opinions or that they're only interested in representing the opinions of their own local players.
I feel similarly to Jeff on this one. And to be fair, I was actually making my comment based on the current discussion, and that it seems like the same 3 to 5 voices on these boards. I have no basis to know what conversations go on anywhere else but in Minnesota, and so would certainly not base a blanket statement like I made based on only my knowledge of Minnesota.
But typically, at least from what I understand, the vocal minority is considered those folks who post a lot on the boards, but don't necessarily represent the wants and desires of the entire gamer base (fairly often, the exact opposite is true).
So I wasn't basing my comment on what goes on in Minnesota. Although I don't hear a ton of call for anything other than core races, and so far I haven't heard anyone complain about race boons one way or another, here in Minnesota.
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I wasn't attacking any one particular person, although with the outcry from the VCs it apparently looks that way. However, it was more of a general statement, VOs are going to fight for what their area or community want, that's a given. And while there may be a few that can look beyond their own borders, I haven't felt like I've seen them posting yet.
so take it as you will
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I wasn't after you, at all, Andrew. If you can accuse me of picking on anyone's attitude, it is Todd's. I see Todd as poking at people with the posts he put up, and I don't think that's an attitude that needs to be forwarded in this community.
And understand something important, here: I have a ton of respect for Todd. I think he has been great for the community overall.
If I'm misreading your intentions, Todd, I apologize. But I will also say that, perhaps, you should heed the words of your fellow Venture Captain: internet speech is easily misinterpreted. Be very careful of how you portray the things you say. Especially with that title after your name.
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I wasn't after you, at all, Andrew. If you can accuse me of picking on anyone's attitude, it is Todd's. I see Todd as poking at people with the posts he put up, and I don't think that's an attitude that needs to be forwarded in this community.
And understand something important, here: I have a ton of respect for Todd. I think he has been great for the community overall.
If I'm misreading your intentions, Todd, I apologize. But I will also say that, perhaps, you should heed the words of your fellow Venture Captain: internet speech is easily misinterpreted. Be very careful of how you portray the things you say. Especially with that title after your name.
No problems. I didn't really feel attacked, just wanted to explain my stance a little further.
It is interesting how different the various regions are in respect to what those individual player bases find important, or not important.
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While I can understand the urge to give in, post guidelines, and tell the clamoring hordes "You made your bed, now sleep in it!", I sincerely hope you choose to use your common sense instead of a hard and fast rule. That is why we play Pathfinder, we enjoy the interaction. We don't have an AI as the top brass of Pathfinder, we have a human being.
Please, don't go crazy with the guidelines.
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For the record, my post was made because it looked like people were assuming that VOs should know what PFS play looks like all over, not just in their locality.
Having been a community member for some time, and with the utmost respect for the contributions that Drogon and Thea make to this online space, I am confident that this isn't what they meant - but I just felt the need to have it on record that I think that's an unrealistic expectation, in case others wander in and take that at face value.
That's because no one lives in Iowa :-P