Melee Alchemist Discussion

[Beowulf77]

Hello all:

Just wondering what the general view on the melee alchemist is -

I'm thinking of using Vivisectionist, just for more damage / day: I know that bombs allow a lot of flavour and utility (stink bombs, force, etc), but I figure that more mileage could be gained via sneak-attack (A single full-round attack could deal more precision/bomb damage than a whole combat). He is planned to be focusing on Natural Attacks; I thought of a two level dip into Urban Barbarian for a Gore attack (primary). This seems necessary for keep damage up lategame (4 primary attacks vs. 3)

Internal Alchemist for flavour - holding your breath / suspended animation just sounds awesome.

SO, down to the nuts and bolts and main questions: is the Master Chymist viable and if so, when? Extract progression loss, no discovery advancement, etc: do all of these counterbalance the additional mutations/day, buffed damage, etc?

Would the progression of 'vanilla' alchemist offer more options? It doesn't gain the benefit of Persistent Mutagen until 14th level - it seems pretty late game.

Thoughts?

[Robespierre]

You dependecy on your extracts will determine whether or not it's worth going master chymist.

[Davor]

Go Beastmorph/Vivisectionist. Pounce Sneak Attacks. /win

You may want to take 3 levels of Rogue with the Scout Archetype to guarantee sneak attack damage on a charge regardless of whether or not you meet the sneak attack requirements. But I'm pretty sure that idea will get laughed off the boards pretty quickly :P

[0gre]

I like Master Chymst for the Mutagenic Form ability which triples the amount of time you can spend per day mutated. Usually I take it for levels 9-12 so I can grab Greater Mutagen and brutality. It also bumps up your BAB a bit which means you get iterative attacks a little quicker. If you are going to progress all the way to 20th level things get a little weird because you can't qualify for the higher level discoveries.

[Mergy]

Master Chymist is a very nice prestige class. Grab a morningstar/longspear and go to town with a high strength alchemical warrior. Your intelligence need not be sky-high because you're delaying your extract progression: try to have a 16 by the time you get to level 7 (so 14 and a +2 headband).

Feral Mutagen is great for low levels, and by the time you get up to Master Chymist you can start focusing on a magical longspear with claws and a bite if they get inside your guard.

Internal Alchemist is pretty meh in my opinion. Definitely if you want the best combination vivisectionist/beastmorph is where it's at. Otherwise I would just go core alchemist because if you go vivisectionist your sneak attack progression will not increase when you prestige to Master Chymist.

[Beowulf77]

Mergy wrote:

Otherwise I would just go core alchemist because if you go vivisectionist your sneak attack progression will not increase when you prestige to Master Chymist.

Wouldn't it still increase? Master Chymist stacks with Alchemist for purposes of determining bomb damage - wouldn't that translate into sneak attack damage?

In the same vein, would the +1/2 bomb damage alternate race feature from the Half-Orc apply to sneak attack damage?

I've never tried it but it just came to mind.

Beastmorph sounds pretty awesome: I just don't see my guy becoming a wolf/bear/dragon morph.

[Mergy]

Neither would increase sneak attack because sneak attack is not bombs.

[Beowulf77]

But via vivisectionist, it replaces the bomb feature: wouldn't that progression continue on?

[Jason Nelson]

Nope.

Archetypes and PrC's affect precisely what they say they affect and nothing else. If you swapped out that ability through another archetype, you are outta luck.

[Talon3585]

straight alchemist, high des, finess, agility weapon ability. down a dex mutagen, take a cats grace extract or potion (not sure if the mutagen stacks with the extract/potion) thats a +8 (if they do). bam!!! great ac + good hit and damage

[Mergy]

A finesse build isn't worth it. Extra money and feats for less damage and slightly more AC.

[Talon3585]

Mergy wrote:

A finesse build isn't worth it. Extra money and feats for less damage and slightly more AC.

pewp......i love dexy characters.....

[Reynard_the_fox]

Hey, if you want to build a dexterity based character, build a dexterity-based character. Just don't expect to be rampaging and smashing stuff like a Barbarian; instead, you get better AC and Reflex saves, as well as improved Stealth, Sleight of Hand, etc.

Consider this: a vivisectionist alchemist who drinks a dex mutagen and an extract of Reduce Person gets +4 to hit, +4 AC, and +4 stealth, at the cost of 2 wisdom, -1 damage (irrelevant with sneak attack), and slightly smaller weapon dice (also irrelevant with sneak attack). In comparison, one that drinks a str mutagen and quaffs Enlarge Person gets +2 to hit, +3 (and slightly larger weapon dice) damage, and a longer reach, at the cost of -4 to stealth, -2 to AC, and -2 Int.

IMO, dex-based has a slight edge, especially for a sneaky character. Besides, if you're going to fight in or behind the front lines, you'll want all the AC you can get.

[Edgar Lamoureux]

You're forgetting to add in the Natural Armor bonus from Mutagen.

[Reynard_the_fox]

Ah, true. OK, +2 AC in both cases, then.

Point is, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Pure damage output isn't everything.

[Edgar Lamoureux]

Yep. If we were going purely by damage output, however, I'd absolutely have to give it to the STR alchemist, unless you're starting at a higher level and can get your hands on an agile weapon/AoMF, in which case you're evened out, and the bonuses from dexterity become gravy.

[Gignere]

If you get the Agile weapon enchant the dex builds are doing very respectable damage. Especially with feral mutagen.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Edgar Lamoureux]

The Guided property adds your Wisdom to hit and damage, not Dexterity. Generally, an alchemist won't have high a enough wisdom to make a Guided weapon worth it.

Edit: Ninja Edit'd

[Beowulf77]

So: the build.

Straight Alchemist 5 (Vivisectionist, possible beastmorph) *Speaking of which, does the choice of Beast Shape enhancing Mutagen carry over to the Master Chymists use of Mutate?

Race: Half-Elf with the Dual Mind alternate race feature seems best pick to balance slow Will progression.

Discoveries: Still thinking the natural attack gimmick will work once he gets Master Chymist going (three attacks at full BAB/strength/P.A. vs. iterative attacks?)
Feral Mutagen
___________? (Arm?)
*Is Wings worth it at 6th?

Feats:
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Craft Wonderous Item (yay cheap items)

Armour: Chain Shirt +1
Weapon: Long spear, claw/claw/bite with mutagen
Gear: +2 Str item, Handy Haversack, and as many potions as I can shake a stick at.

(Playing an 'overpowered' game, 25 points w/ 1-1 point buy, nothing over 18)

Str 18 + 2 racial
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

Get a +1 from 4th, put into Con because HP?

Thoughts?

[Mergy]

Looks good to me. If you're going beastmorph you'll be able to fly while under the effects of mutagen, so wings aren't necessary.

One discovery that I think is underrated is the Preserve Organs one, which basically gives you the equivalent of fortification on your armour; three discoveries may seem pricey, but it's worth +5 for heavy fortification (75% crit and sneak attack immunity).

Depending on the rest of the party, sometimes the Infusion discovery will be invaluable. I like to pass out extracts of false life to the squishier members of my party, as it really makes a big difference when it comes to surviving an ambush. Pearls of Power are also an option on extending your extract use. (Note: They are legal as alchemists are prepared spellcasters, but you may have to convince your GM)

The advantage of the longspear is the ability to attack at range while biting in melee. It's *technically* possible to grow your claws on your feet and have all your attacks available to you, but I wouldn't try it as many players and GMs will cry foul.

I would consider dropping your charisma to 8 for wisdom to 12, just to shore up that will save even further.