Trying to make a decent combat Rogue-> Duelist, any advice?


Advice


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Alright so as I said trying to make a decent swashbuckling Rogue who can actually survive in combat and put out some decent damage who will go on to be a Duelist as levels allow. He's a human because that extra feat is gold.

As is the starting point is level 6 the stats are 10,16,15,14,14,11. My plan was to use them as 11 Str, 18 Dex +2 racial, 16 Con +1 level 4, 14 int, 14wis, 10 Cha.

I've talked to my DM about allowing finesse for bonus damage as well as to hit which is why I'm okay with such a low str mod.

I've got Trap Spotter, Finesse Rogue, and Combat Trick as his Rogue Tricks.

He's using a Rapier hopefully keen but we haven't discussed magic item availability yet so if you're suggesting anything make sure it's cheap enough to be reasonable to find in a storeroom or some such.

For feats I'm looking at Dodge, Mobility, Skill focus(perception), Skill focus(Disable Device), Weapon Finesse, and Finesse Strike(The second slot to get the + dmg mod on finesse)

Other than that I'm sort of up in the air for the last two feat options. Possibly Power Attack if I can get gauntlets of might or whatever or Spring Attack with the Scout Archtype might be an option but I'd like to find some way to make him a bit more survivable in combat so I can get a flank and actually stick around if that's possible?

I'd appreciate any advice you could give me on how to pick up some extra AC at this level without crippling myself to fight defensively all the time.

Edit: I also wouldn't be at all opposed to an idea on how to increase my damage or if you think I'll do okay in that regard. Oh right I also forgot to mention in my group we get extra feats on even levels not odds. so Feat at 1,2,4,6 ... etc.

Liberty's Edge

Piranha Strike is the Weapon Finesse version of Power Attack, and potentially well worth it. By the official rules it doesn't work with a rapier, but then by the official rules you can't buy a Feat and get +Dex to damage with a rapier either.

If you have a Flanking Buddy, both of you grabbing Precise Strike or Outflank might well be worth it. If you don't have one willing to go teamwork, grab Weapon Focus.

As for AC, grab a miithril chain shirt, a Belt of Dexterity, an Amulet of Natural Armor, a Ring of Protection, and (until you actually are a duelist) a masterwork buckler. You could also get Combat Expertise, obviously, which does stack with Fighting Defensively.


Agile Weapon enhancement (which counts as a +1) seems to be what you need here.

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Agile Weapon enhancement (which counts as a +1) seems to be what you need here.

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Ah interesting if my DM doesn't feel like the feat is fair I'll suggest the Agile weapon I didn't know they were around since they weren't in the core rules and I haven't read all of the side books of course.

Also thank you for the suggestion about Piranha Strike I'll chat with the DM about that as well.


Having looked it up Outflank looks very promising. Particularly since my shot to hit someone in armor isn't stellar with the slow BAB growth. Thanks Deadman.


An alternative to straight rogue (until duelist) could be taking 3 levels of weapon master (fighter archetype) to get weapon training earlier than other fighters and buying gloves of dueling for +3 to hit and damage. This would also give you another feat.


Crysknife wrote:
An alternative to straight rogue (until duelist) could be taking 3 levels of weapon master (fighter archetype) to get weapon training earlier than other fighters and buying gloves of dueling for +3 to hit and damage. This would also give you another feat.

An interesting suggestion but the gloves of dueling are way outside of the price range of items I'd expect the DM to allow me to come in with. Although I do welcome other suggestions for multiclassing for anyone suggesting it keep in mind I do need to also fulfill the party's trap specialist role.


gnomersy wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
An alternative to straight rogue (until duelist) could be taking 3 levels of weapon master (fighter archetype) to get weapon training earlier than other fighters and buying gloves of dueling for +3 to hit and damage. This would also give you another feat.
An interesting suggestion but the gloves of dueling are way outside of the price range of items I'd expect the DM to allow me to come in with. Although I do welcome other suggestions for multiclassing for anyone suggesting it keep in mind I do need to also fulfill the party's trap specialist role.

Well, as a human with decent intelligence you will be able to put full ranks in disable device anyway.

As for the gloves, you may be able to buy them later: you still get a +1(almost +2 thanks to full BAB) to hit and damage.


How about the offensive defense rogue talent to boost your AC?

Imroved and greater feint could be a good option for you later as a duelist, if you don´t have a flanking buddy or other means to get sneak attack.

Also note, a keen rapier is a +2 rapier pricewise, because it has to have at least a +1 enhancement before you can apply other enhancements. So it´s already nothing you find in grandmothers storeroom normally.


Hayato thank you for the advice after rechecking Offensive Defense it's actually much much better than I thought it was initially (For some reason I thought it replaced the sneak attack damage).

As for Feinting ... ehhh I like the idea of feinting but in practice it doesn't seem like an efficient use of actions. Sure I get in some sneak attack dice at a slightly lower AC but I also sacrifice any iterative attacks I may have in order to use it I suppose if I was using both it and vital strike but the feat investment would be very high or if I could rely on access to haste.

PS: While I wasn't aware of pricing rules for the rapier the chances are decent that I will come into the party with access to no magic items whatsoever hence why I said hopefully our DM isn't really the magic mart sort if we want magical gear we go adventuring for it we don't really get to pick and choose unless we commission the item and wait for its creation.


If you really want to be a great swashbuckler, you should learn to feint well and practice your winning smile.

I'd go:
Human bonus: Combat expertise
Level 1: Dodge
Level 2 Rogue talent: Finesse rogue
Level 2: Improved Feint
Level 3: Rogue talent: Befuddling strike
Level 4: Skill focus (bluff)

Traits: Fast-talker, whatever you want

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 16

At level 4, you will have 4 (level) + 3 (favored) + 3 (focus) + 1 (trait) = 11 bluff.

Unless you're fighting very high sense motive opponents, you should have to make a bluff check of 10+BAB+Wis, which means usually in the 13-16 range. Which means you'll almost always be able to feint.

Move action feint, then stick them with the pointy end for 1d6+2d6 and he gets -2 to hit you. And you get to sway the ladies as well. That's what swashbuckling is all about.


Offensive defense scales better as befuddling strike, since it scales with sneak attack dice. You can use both though to be even harder to hit.

As for feinting, its better you hit once with sneak attack as twice without, because you damage in the first case will eventually become higher. Feint as move action then land a sneak attack with highest attack is ok. Combat expertise is good to boost your AC too if necessary.

Greater feint comes in handy for your parry AoO´s with duelist later.

It all comes down to if you have a reliable flanking partner or not though. If you have one maybe better take outflank the both of you and other teamwork feats that let you take more AoO´s.
As i see it, as a duelist you can already boost our AC later with INT and canny defense and the other abilities. What you want as a duelist too is the highest possible +hit bonus you can get to parry.

The magic weapon issue is bad though, because it will really hamper you over the levels. What you want is a flat bonus and if you can´t get haste regularly a speed weapon. For keen you can just take the improved critical talent. Should be possible in between somewhere.

For talents and feats in general i would suggest:
-dodge, mobility, weapon finesse to get duelist
-your finesse strike if possible (you get precise strike though, adding duelist elvel on damage and you have sneak attack if you do it right, so your damage should be ok)
-weapon focus rapier
-trap spotter if you like
-offensive defense, befuddling strike if you feel its necessary, but remember duelists get canny defense

Then you either go the flanking route with outflank and other teamwork feats as you like, or you go combat expertise - improved feinting - greater feinting.

Liberty's Edge

Have you looked into the feat Gang Up from the APG? Requires Combat Expertise, which seems like it would be decent for your character, and it allows you to count as flanking if two of your allies are flanking a creature.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#gang-up


Hayato Ken wrote:

Stuff.

I am somewhat curious as to why you believe that a single sneak attacked attack would be better than hitting twice without particularly since I'm going into the Duelist class which means the sneak attack dice will stop increasing at level 8. That's really why I feel like dropping two feats into the feinting ability isn't necessarily worth it.

As for the magic weapon issue I'm not sure if it's a significant problem the DM's a nice guy so we "oddly" run into people who make use of our favored equipment options every so often when we go adventuring =P.

I have however seriously considered the Fighter 3/Rogue 3/Duelist 10 etc option. This has the benefit of getting me into Duelist 1 level earlier albeit at the cost of some of my rogueishness, it doesn't hurt my trapfinding although my other skills drop a bit, it also gets me almost full BAB, and therefore gets me my second attack at 7.

The bigger hit die will tradeoff with my lack of favored class bonus to not hurt me there. And Fighter feats would trade off with the lost rogue talents. This would lose me 2d6 sneak attack dice and uncanny dodge but on the other hand it trades the potential damage for more consistency.

The only question for the time being would be if I'd prefer Free Hand Fighter as my archetype or Weapon Master if I were to go that route.


If you want trapfinding, I would go Trapper Ranger for at least one level. Then you could pick any Fighter Archetype for 5 levels and still get Weapon Training. You wouldn't lose any BAB.

Your Rogue 3/ Fighter 3 entry to Duelist won't work because you don't have enough BAB.


Oterisk wrote:

If you want trapfinding, I would go Trapper Ranger for at least one level. Then you could pick any Fighter Archetype for 5 levels and still get Weapon Training. You wouldn't lose any BAB.

Your Rogue 3/ Fighter 3 entry to Duelist won't work because you don't have enough BAB.

Ah you're quite right it would be Rogue 3/Fighter 4 or vica versa. You are right I could go into ranger I never actually thought of that since I didn't check the ultimate magic book for primarily melee archetypes. On the other hand there's just something nostalgic to the rogue isn't there? I'd love to be able to think of a way that would make it work in combat instead of just copping out.

Edit: Also I just really can't feel like I'm making a real character when he goes from being a woodsman/trapper into a one handed fighter into a duelist it's like he's being civilized when he isn't looking.


You have to decide if you want to use sneak attack or not. One sneak attack with weapon damage+other modifiers+3d6 or more is better than two attacks with only weapon damage+other modifiers. Also you aim at hitting flat-footed AC (which essentially means being denied DEX and other similar boni to AC and is therefore lower in most cases).

If not and you go into rogue only or mainly for flavor, skills etc and disarming magical traps etc, you should consider other choices.
You should then look into a full BAB class for a better +hit chance, also pimping your duelist abilities. One level rogue or something else getting to disarm magic traps etc would then be enough. Or like you said free hand fighter or something.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I was trying to come up with suggestions and just ended up writing up a whole build. This goes up to level 10. I went off of various suggestions to include a feint build-- I am assuming since Str is low, you will rely on sneak attack as well as precise strike for damage.

To take or leave:

Spoiler:

Rogue 8/Duelist 2
Move 30 ft
Initiative +6
Senses Perception +13

DEFENSE
AC 17 (10+4 Dex+2 Int +1 Dodge)
Hp 70 (8d8+2d10)
Fort +4 (+2) Ref 11 (+7) Will +2 (+2)
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Canny Defense (currently +2 Int to AC, at 3rd level of Duelist will be +3)

OFFENSE
BAB +8/+3; CMB +9
Rapier +13/+8

Sneak Attack 4d6

Precise Strike (Ex): +2 (Duelist level) to attacks made with 1 hand – if attack with 2nd hand, cannot apply precise strike. Does not apply to those immune to crits.

Improved Reaction (Ex): +2 to Init

Parry (Ex): During full attack, can sacrifice 1 attack to parry an attack during same round.

STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 14
(Human bonus to Dex, 4th level bonus to Str, 8th level bonus to Int—skill points go up then)

Rogue Talents:
Level 2: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Level 4: Combat Trick (Combat Expertise)
Level 6: Trapspotter
Level 8: Either a Sneak Attack talent (I like Bleeding Attack) or Honeyed Words

Feats: Dodge (Human), Weapon Finesse (1), Weapon Focus (Rapier) (Rogue Talent), Mobility (3), Combat Expertise (Rogue Talent), Improved Feint (5), Skill Focus (Bluff) (7), Greater Feint (9)

Skill points (8+2+1x7, 8+3+1x1, 4+3+1x2 = 105 skill points total)
Acrobatics (Dex) 10 ranks = +17
Bluff (Cha) 10 ranks = +21
Climb (Str) 3 ranks
Diplomacy (Cha) 10 ranks = +15
Disable Device (Dex) 10 ranks = +21
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int) 5 ranks = +11
Knowledge (local) (Int) 5 ranks = +11
Perception (Wis) 10 ranks = +13 (+17 to find traps)
Perform (Oratory) (Cha) 2 ranks = +7
Sense Motive (Wis) 10 ranks = +13
Sleight of Hand (Dex) 10 ranks = +17
Stealth (Dex) 10 ranks = +17
Use Magic Device (Cha) 10 ranks = +15

Trapfinding; Trap Sense+2

Build is "naked."

I kept the gnomersy's original desire to be just Rogue/Duelist (but certainly Fighter/Rogue/Duelist can work very well), just for the sake of simplicity. I had no idea what books were allowed so I just stuck to core+APG (and it's mostly core except for the suggestion of Honeyed Words as a possible rogue talent).

I noted you wanted your character to be good at traps, so I left in trapspotter and didn't take any rogue archetypes so you could have both Uncanny Dodge (good for a swashbucklery/duelist type) and Trapfinding. I noticed the build you considered included Skill Focus (Disable Device) and you REALLY don't need that -- assuming you are just going Rogue before Duelist, you will have a minimum of 8 rogue levels which means you get a +4 to all Disable Device checks from your trapfinding ability, and you aren't going to find many traps that are going to have higher DCs than what you can handle with just training the skill and your trapfinding bonus.

I kept gnomersy's stats (I assumed they were rolled) but did a slightly different distribution--dumped Wis for Cha, since this is a suggested feint build. Boosted Int for eventually higher AC due to Duelist levels. Since good Cha, also trained Use Magic Device since that's always useful. Besides prerequisite skills, just built a character that offered good general skill monkey utility and some party face stuff.

Again all of this can be taken or left, just an idea.


3 levels of free hand fighter gets you +1 to CMB and CMD on disarm and feint, and a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

3 levels of weapon master gets you +1 CMD vs disarm and sunder, and +1 attack and damage.

3 levels in tactician gets you 2 more skill points per level, better bonus feats, and a +1 bonus to initiative

3 levels of lore warden gets you 2 more skill points per level with restrictions, combat expertise, and +2 on all cmb and cmd checks.

Depending on the campaign, I would strongly consider a 3 level dip in fighter, and would strongly consider one of the above archtypes. Also, disarm may serve you as well as feint or better in an urban campaign, and goes well with the duelist style.

4 levels of rogue gets you two rogue talents on top of this, then go duelist after 7th level.


I fully respect your choice for flavor reasons. A story that would work for me is a gradual movement of street rat to honorable fighter, and so 3 or 4 levels of Rogue (depending on whether or not you want the second rogue talent) and moving to 3 or 4 levels of Fighter and then to duelist can signify a progression of your character to a more noble fighting style.

One thing that might also work is something I discovered while looking at things for the Duelist. DeathQuaker has some good options for you, but I would recommend something a little different.

Instead of going with the more common Rapier, you can go with Dagger instead so you can throw them and gain a ranged attack. You can gain more attacks with Rapid Shot at that time, although multiple daggers can be expensive. Using Daggers as a thrown weapon works for precise strike too, and has more of a Rogue feel. Picking up Deadly Aim will only help with your damage, and with the addition of precise strike later you can keep up.

If you want to do TWF, you aren't limited to weapons you can hold in your off hand. Both the Blade Boot and Armor Spikes are piercing weapons that qualify for precise strike as well as being finessable.

Here is my recommended build for you.

Feats
Bonus Human: Weapon Focus: Dagger
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Combat Trick: Two Weapon Fighting
3 Dodge
4 (Fighter) Deadly Aim
5 Mobility
6 Rapid Shot
7 Weapon Specialization: Dagger

So before you get into Duelist, with an 18 Dex, you will be at a +11 not counting weapon bonuses. You will also get a bonus of +2 to damage with the Specialization and a 2d6 for your sneak attack. Deadly Aim can add another +4 for a thrown dagger, and a blade boot can get you another attack when it is advantageous.


Bard (Archeologist) 8 / Duelist could also be fun for what you have in mind.


Thanks for all of the advice guys I've decided to go Rogue 4/Weapon Master 3. I agree the TWF thing is an option but since I'm trying to get away from a hyper optimized character and because I'd feel dirty for getting around the Prestige class restriction and I'm looking to be the second front liner for our group since as is we only have the one person now in theory I'll be grabbing flanks and whatnot but I'll probably pick up feint as I level because there are only so many useful feats.

I do have one last question for anyone still reading this though is access to weapon specialization from fighter 4 better than uncanny dodge?

@ Mongoose While I definitely did consider that option the party already consists of a Bard,Fighter,Cleric and I didn't really want to step on his toes.

@ DeathQuaker Quite the build I appreciate it and I did actually take your advice on trading the Con for Int but since I can reasonably expect a flanking partner and since my DM has allowed the Agile weapon effect as a feat choice my damage will be primarily from Dex then from Precise Strike as I level. I won't be a damage monster of course but I can still land a few solid hits here and there.


gnomersy wrote:
@ Mongoose While I definitely did consider that option the party already consists of a Bard,Fighter,Cleric and I didn't really want to step on his toes.

I don't see how an archeologist would step on the toes of the other bard, as it don't get performances and get rogue talents and trapfinding instead, and you can choose other skills. You can have two very different character, I think.

But, again, I don't know your group dynamic.


gnomersy wrote:
I do have one last question for anyone still reading this though is access to weapon specialization from fighter 4 better than uncanny dodge?

Since you get Dex for damage at level 1, I wouldn't worry about specialization. You still get a Rogue talent, Uncanny Dodge and 6 skill points for sticking with Rogue for another level. Not a bad trade.


If you're going to build a duelist rogue, the best way to do it is pump +attack so you can hit WHILE fighting defensively. Combat Expertise is a must. Instead of Trap Spotter, take Weapon Training for your rogue talent.

I'm currently playing a Fighter 3/Rogue 4, burning all of my rogue talents for feats (building like a fighter), and it's turning out to be a monster.

Full rogue, even swashbuckler rogue, doesn't hold up well in a 1 on 1 fight. But if you have to take it, build it as much like a fighter as you can. Fighters make better duelists, with the EXCEPTION of Uncanny Dodge. (Luckily with my build, I only lose 1 levels worth of Base Attack in the four levels of rouge that I'm taking, AND I still get a bonus feat every two levels.)


I played around with this build a bit last night and a free hand fighter 3/ rogue 4/ duelist xx can be quite effective in that the rogue dips get good trapfinding, the freehand dips get better dodge ac and bonuses to disarm and feint, and the duelist gets more defense and some damage. Greater Disarm could be fun in an urban campaign, as the bonuses get pretty large. Agile weapons are a must and agile maneuvers isn't needed if you're disarming with your weapon. A stereotypical duelist would pump sense motive, bluff, and acrobatics for dueling.

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