Class Choice for a Very Confused Party

[SheetSandwich]

Hello (howyalldoin).

I'm involved with a campaign that's recently been subject to a, to put it kindly, hard reset.

In less delicate terms, we all kind of freaked out and ran flailing into the meat grinder.

In the last campaign, we had a cleric (me) with the healing and luck domains, an alchemist, an undead sorcerer, a ranger (though he wasn't big on saying it directly) that used two weapons, a sword-and-board fighter, and some one that died so regularly his class may as well have been corpse. I've been told I didn't do bad in healing or damage (the group was decimated by a temporary player playing a rogue).

Now, I've been looking at getting into a Zen Archer. I'm familiar with monks, and am comfortable playing them, and after a few hours of reading, I've got a plan for the Zen Archer. My party, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be as big on planning as I am.

Two of them (the alchemist and ranger) are very experienced, and good at what they do. I trust their choices fully, and know we can make a party work with their choices. The undead sorcerer, a player that's always been good with casters, is looking at a druid, a melee druid I think. The guy that dies regularly is looking at a full orc (with the +4 Str and a -2 to Int, Wis, and Cha). Our knightly fighter is going two-weapon ranger, and our previous ranger is liable to, once again, go ranger. Not sure about the alchemist, since he seems to be interested in trying whatever.

We're going with a dice pool method, rolling 24 and keeping 18, and starting as level one NPC classes, only to become heroic at level five. Due to some heroics I pulled, I've been upgraded to having 100 points to spend, an amazing amount. The max I can have in each slot is 20 after racial bonuses, and I've been allowed to use the Oread, something I was looking at for the Zen Archer due to the +2 to Wis and Str, and the -2 to Cha. I've got a plan for the stats, and basically had the character made.

Then, I realized that we were going to have a lot of melee fighters, with no real healer.

For some background, this is a home-made campaign that's got a lot of potential damage bound our way. We get a lot of bonus items, but my super powered character is most certainly the highest: alchemist has ~87 points to spend, ~92 points for the oh-so mysterious ranger man, and low seventies for all others.

With all these points, I know I can make a pretty nasty cleric, though I'm loathe to make another one when I've been that for three campaigns.
So, I must ask, what are your opinions, everyone? I know a lot of you guys have more experience, or even just different perspectives, than I. What would you do in this situation?

For the short and sweet of it: I've got a mixed-up party, and I don't know if I should pick Zen Archer or Cleric. What do I do?

[Elinor Knutsdottir]

I'm curious as to how a group of six could be decimated.

[Theos Imarion]

Ask your DM to make a healer for you or just make sure the druid is stocked up on CLW wands. If you want the best healer possible go life oracle

[SheetSandwich]

A rather powerful, though previously wounded, enemy (a Planetar Angel) was summoned by some poor choices on the behalf of our party corpse, which lead to two deaths due to the fact that we were level six and in no way prepared. The rogue got mad, and killed all but me (the Alchemist and ranger were missing). In a previous encounter, I got lucky and received a little bonus from home ruling, the bonus being that, on an attack roll of a natural twenty, whatever I'm attacking instantly dies. So, with the angel and rogue dead, I was left alone when a tailor-made god came out, and tried to get me to make a pact, due to being "the strongest". Instead, I opted to try and kill him, hoping the 20 would take effect. Sadly, and predictably, it didn't work out.

[AinvarG]

Play what you want to play. If (possibly the most significant word here) the encounters are level-appropriate for your party, the group will have time to figure out the healing needs to work out. As mentioned, the druid could be the party's primary healer with some planning. The former alchemist could very well step in and cover healing when they realize you aren't doing to do it.

Or perhaps the rest of the party can come up with a compromise when they realize you want to tread some new ground.

Do what you want to do. If your decision leaves the party without a healer, the issue will generally work itself out.

[SheetSandwich]

AinvarG wrote:

Play what you want to play. If (possibly the most significant word here) the encounters are level-appropriate for your party, the group will have time to figure out the healing needs to work out. As mentioned, the druid could be the party's primary healer with some planning. The former alchemist could very well step in and cover healing when they realize you aren't doing to do it.

Or perhaps the rest of the party can come up with a compromise when they realize you want to tread some new ground.

Do what you want to do. If your decision leaves the party without a healer, the issue will generally work itself out.

That's probably true, and is what I've been told. However, the encounters can be a bit... insane, and seem a little above our level. Hopefully, by starting again, the difficulty will go down. I was often channeling after every encounter, though that wasn't a big deal, and I tossed out cures fairly regularly.

[Jiraiya22]

In general an in combat healer isn't a necessity. You can't heal faster than enemies deal damage to your party or a PC would deal damage to an enemy, so you mostly end up trying to refill several rapidly emptying buckets when it would really be a lot more efficient to kill the thing poking holes in your buckets in the first place. That being said, it is an absolute necessity to have an out of combat healer. Pathfinder has extremely slow non-magical healing rates, and you need to have some way to get rid of stat damage and other debuffs. If your friend is playing a druid he can do this competently, you don't need to worry about fulfilling this role. Moreover, anyone with a decent UMD skill and a few wands of cure light wounds can also fulfill the bare minimums of the out of combat healer role.

My advice would be to make sure somebody can do between combat healing but beyond that not worry about missing a primary healer. Zen Archers are cool, be one.

[SheetSandwich]

Jiraiya22 wrote:

In general an in combat healer isn't a necessity. You can't heal faster than enemies deal damage to your party or a PC would deal damage to an enemy, so you mostly end up trying to refill several rapidly emptying buckets when it would really be a lot more efficient to kill the thing poking holes in your buckets in the first place. That being said, it is an absolute necessity to have an out of combat healer. Pathfinder has extremely slow non-magical healing rates, and you need to have some way to get rid of stat damage and other debuffs. If your friend is playing a druid he can do this competently, you don't need to worry about fulfilling this role. Moreover, anyone with a decent UMD skill and a few wands of cure light wounds can also fulfill the bare minimums of the out of combat healer role.

My advice would be to make sure somebody can do between combat healing but beyond that not worry about missing a primary healer. Zen Archers are cool, be one.

I've read about that before, and it makes sense. I figure I'll try and touch base with all of the players, since it's not uncommon for someone to get on the verge of death mid-combat. I'm probably just worrying too much, since the real healing happens out of combat, and this time a rule to have Heal skill checks give back more hit points than previously may get us by.

I guess my big worry is that the GM personally asked me to play a cleric again, though he seemed open to me not doing so.

[Alitan]

Elinor Knutsdottir wrote:

I'm curious as to how a group of six could be decimated.

One character made 0.6 dead, that's how.

NB: For those unfamiliar with the Roman practice of decimation, it is the execution of one-tenth of a force... not of 90%. Which is how 'decimate' tends to get used these days. 'These kids today... no understanding of their roots...'

;)

[TheGuyOverThere9888]

I suggest elf mystic with warrior of old and magical knack (cleric) traits.

healing and fire domains, evocation admixture school.

take crafting feats.

pump dex, wis, and int. Take some con, and forget cha. str 8 works just fine.

now you are a crafty casting ball of awesome. you do loose out on one CL of cleric and three CL of wizard as well as wizard bonus feats and channel energy after 3rd.

i'm sure you can think of plenty of cool items to make that will make you and your party even more awesome.

As for your fail orc friend, I suggest either a pally or invulnerable barb.

pally is a self-healing tank with shield slam

the barb is also a tank (with 7AC). The idea here is the barb gets hit all the time but doesn't care (DR + HP) but enemies foolish enough to attack him will regret every swing...before they hit.

for your other buddies, bards are awesome, druids are fantastic, rouge = win, and rangers can be good. I here good things about summoners.

[UltimaGabe]

SheetSandwich wrote:

A rather powerful, though previously wounded, enemy (a Planetar Angel) was summoned by some poor choices on the behalf of our party corpse, which lead to two deaths due to the fact that we were level six and in no way prepared. The rogue got mad, and killed all but me (the Alchemist and ranger were missing). In a previous encounter, I got lucky and received a little bonus from home ruling, the bonus being that, on an attack roll of a natural twenty, whatever I'm attacking instantly dies. So, with the angel and rogue dead, I was left alone when a tailor-made god came out, and tried to get me to make a pact, due to being "the strongest". Instead, I opted to try and kill him, hoping the 20 would take effect. Sadly, and predictably, it didn't work out.

....

Every part of this story confuses me. You are fighting a planetar (for what reason, exactly?) that was summoned by a dead PC (?) and so the party rogue decided to kill the majority of the party (and was somehow able to make that happen?), so you killed the planetar because of a nat20-insta-kill ability, (as well as the rogue I guess?) and when a god appeared (for... what reason?) and wanted to work with you (why?) you decided to try and kill the god and (surprise, surprise) failed- all at level 6?

Am I reading this right?

[MicMan]

Thats called high fantasy :) I love it, it reminds me of my games some 15 years ago. Nowadays my players (and I too, I guess) are all old grumps that hate to see strange, over the top wahoo things.

For such a campaign I would suggest the Synthesist Summoner ;). Also if one of you buddies is comfortable with a Paladin he can do the healing with touches and a Wand of CLW.

[Richard Leonhart]

your group seems like a lot of fun (no sarcasm), so I would suggest a reincarnated druid for "oh no, not again"-effect when you die.
Also use reincarnation to resurrect fellow party members, there is nothing like the 10-race Monte to spice up things.

If you want raw healing power, you could go with a hedge witch (you party seems to direly need some int based people).
Or just go with Life oracle and bore everyone to death while overhealing them.

[Coraith]

I really suggest an Inquisitor! It is a very versatile class. Its like a cleric only you want to smash someone in their face, then poke somebody with a wand.

In PfsOP(organized play) I have a Level 11 Half Orc Preacher(Inquisitor Variant) of Besmara. I am a Pirate. I don't run around healing people in combat. I barely heal people outside of combat unless they are the crew of The Shadow Mastiff(my ship). Send me a Message through paizo and I'll be more then happy to sit down and help you build a homebrew inquisitor.

A few things that in my opinion make Inquisitors better then Clerics
1. Stalwart. Its like evasion for Fort/Will Saves
2. Teamwork Feats w/o Team Planning(All your allies are considered to have whatever teamwork feats you have for determining if you can use the teamwork feat.)
3. BANE!!!!!!!! oh my god bane is freakin amazing! If you can figure out what type of creature you are fighting you bane for whatever type it is and then BAM! +2 enhancement bonus and 2d6 damage...
4. Judgements. Swift action give yourself a bonus for the rest of the fight... Something has high to hit, give yourself more AC. Going up against a caster, Give yourself better saves. Cant hit? Give yourself more to hit. Or to damage. Or energy resistance. Or bypass damage reduction... Judgement=Win

I really suggest Inquisitor. You can heal if needed but you also get great utility and a decent ability to damage your enemies.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

Personally I would NOT run a cleric if I had for the last 3 campaigns.

I just MIGHT be willing to run something else that has healing. Battle oracle, inquisitor, etc... But probably not.

I could probably be talked into something that has a bit of healing. Paladin, witch with healing hex, etc...

But most likely I would insist on running something completely different. So I would recommend you run with the zen archer that you really wanted.

It is not right for the group to try and pressure you into being the band-aid yet again. Someone else should be willing to give it a try sometimes.

[Fallen_Mage]

SheetSandwich wrote:

and some one that died so regularly his class may as well have been corpse.

He wasn't a Bard named Flynn was he?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, see The Gamers: Dorkness Rising.

[materous]

If the druid hasn't completely laid out how he is going to play his class, he can take the Eagle Domain to gain the hawk familiar, then take the Adept Channel feat at 5th (since it requires caster level 4) then can always take the Extra Channel & Selective Channel.

This gives him 4 channels per day (unless he takes the extra channel multiple times), granted his cleric level is effectively 3 lower than his druid level, but in a pinch and after battles it helps. I played a druid in a homebrew game that had this set up, was pretty effective if you also pick a few mass healing for each day. I never ran out of healing with this set up.

This combined with the wild shape feats that let you talk and cast spells while wild shaped makes for a pretty versitile druid, it would allow him to still melee in his wild shaped forms and offer healing for the party when they need it. I always shaped into an air elemental for the fly (it was an airship campaign, flying was VERY beneficial).

[Dabbler]

SheetSandwich wrote:

For the short and sweet of it: I've got a mixed-up party, and I don't know if I should pick Zen Archer or Cleric. What do I do?

Zen Archer. If the worst happens and the party realise they really need a cleric, you can multi-class into cleric with your decent Wis score. On the whole, though, a party this combat heavy should be able to deal it out faster than it comes in.

One other point: You do not need a cleric to heal.

Paladins are decent healers after the first few levels, bards and druids can heal as well. Don't ever get stuck in the "Who's going to play the cleric" mode of thinking, you will have more fun playing what you enjoy.

[Robespierre]

Zen archer is pretty darn good. However it seems like you have a lot of weak characters. At least ones that can't support themselves well. I suggest sticking with the cleric.