Sharp, who alleges that the police beat his friend before arresting
her, pulled out his cell phone to document the encounter. According to
Sharp, several officers approached him and repeatedly demanded that he
surrender his cell phone so they could make a copy of the video to use
as evidence.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news
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If a cop asks you for your phone, just say no.
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Edit: > Here < is a related story.
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He deserved it
Do you have a link? I would like to read all sides of the story before expressing an opinion.
> This < is interesting too. Where will it lead? Who knows.
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This sadly is about par for the course when it comes to the police in America. The most interesting part of the story is that the White House was getting involved. it is heartening to see that they are the good guys in this case, since usually the White House is usually pretty heavily biased towards the law-enforcement.
I believe that it is one of the most civic things that you can do to hold the government accountable, and videotaping police is an excellent way to do that, especially now in the age of smartphones and youtube. There was an app made last year that continuously streams whatever video is being shot with a phone as a livestream and/or into cloud-based storage just to help against the cops doing this sort of thing.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hot air's been reporting similar cases for a while.
Food inspectors gone wild
You're under arrest for heckling!
More Maryland
And just to show I'm not picking on Blue states what if this wasn't recorded?
In my state, SD, it's illegal to record a policeman while they are on duty. If that happened where I am the cop would have arrested the man and seized any recording devices for his trial. And because recording a cop on duty is a felony he would be facing up to 5 years.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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In my state, SD, it's illegal to record a policeman while they are on duty. If that happened where I am the cop would have arrested the man and seized any recording devices for his trial. And because recording a cop on duty is a felony he would be facing up to 5 years.
Why? Why is it illegal? What's the threat that's so bad that every action of a policeman can't be monitored by a civilian?
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Contributor
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In my state, SD, it's illegal to record a policeman while they are on duty. If that happened where I am the cop would have arrested the man and seized any recording devices for his trial. And because recording a cop on duty is a felony he would be facing up to 5 years.
With any luck that law may soon be declared unconstitutional and revoked.
"Who will guard the guardians?"
--Plato.
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In my state, SD, it's illegal to record a policeman while they are on duty. If that happened where I am the cop would have arrested the man and seized any recording devices for his trial. And because recording a cop on duty is a felony he would be facing up to 5 years.Why? Why is it illegal? What's the threat that's so bad that every action of a policeman can't be monitored by a civilian?
The official answer is, if the police are constantly worried about being filmed and having their decisions second guessed they will not be able to preform their duties to the best of their abilities.
Unofficial answer is, redneck rural cops were misbehaving and getting caught on tape causing a lot of lawsuits so the law was passed to reduce the number of lawsuits.
With any luck that law may soon be declared unconstitutional and revoked.
A couple of cases are working through the system now.
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I've found the best thing for people to do is stay the heck out of the police's way and let them do their jobs, you know, protecting us and upholding the law.
They shouldn't have to worry about some edited video footage showing up on prime time tv raking them through the coals.
EDITED to come across as less hostile than it seemed at first.
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I've found the best thing for people to do is stay the hell out of the police's way and let them do their damn jobs, you know, protecting us and upholding the law.
They shouldn't have to worry about some edited video footage showing up on prime time tv raking them through the coals.
Or, from another standpoint:
"I've found the best thing for people to do is stay the hell out of the police's way and let them abuse their authority as flagrantly and egregiously as they care to, you know, harrassing people they don't like and collecting bribes from people they do.
"They shouldn't have to worry about some unaltered video footage showing up in a courtroom when they're on trial for their crimes."
Well if the video cameras were simply on every corner and video taped everything then we could have an unbiased source of footage to use as evidence.
That way if the police are right they have video evidence showing it, and if they are wrong the victims have video evidence of it too.
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Well if the video cameras were simply on every corner and video taped everything then we could have an unbiased source of footage to use as evidence.
That way if the police are right they have video evidence showing it, and if they are wrong the victims have video evidence of it too.
Yeah, but then they'd also get me buyin' weed.
I think that's a terrible idea, Citizen Spalding.
Well proper law abiding citizens could maybe pay a VIP tax -- you know we are all equal but if you pay a little more maybe you are a bit more equal and get special device that stops the cameras from looking at them.
That way if the police are right they have video evidence showing it, and if they are wrong the victims have video evidence of it too.Yeah, but then they'd also get me buyin' weed.
You buy weed from the cops? In Troy, NY (my hometown) they only dealt coke.
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I've found the best thing for people to do is stay the hell out of the police's way and let them do their damn jobs, you know, protecting us and upholding the law.
They shouldn't have to worry about some edited video footage showing up on prime time tv raking them through the coals.
Or, from another standpoint:
"I've found the best thing for people to do is stay the hell out of the police's way and let them abuse their authority as flagrantly and egregiously as they care to, you know, harrassing people they don't like and collecting bribes from people they do.
"They shouldn't have to worry about some unaltered video footage showing up in a courtroom when they're on trial for their crimes."
Kirth I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of police officers are decent hard working folks who do indeed put themselves in harm's way for a public that considers them the bad guys at the drop of a hat.
I hope that your version of my statement is a rather exaggerated rant as opposed to your honest opinion of them.
I remember one time when I was working at the airport I had some of my co-workers over (one Dominican, one Haitian) to get high. One of my roommates at the time was hosting a buddy of his who was working as a Chicago police officer.
Anyway, we went to the other side of the house, but when Bonez and Gelin (man, those guys at the airport had cool names!) found out that he was a member of Chicago's finest, they were all like "how can you smoke weed with the po-lice in the house?!?" and I was like "'Cuz I'm white." [bubble bubble bubble]
They refused to partake. That time.
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I hope that your version of my statement is a rather exaggerated rant as opposed to your honest opinion of them.
I've been assisted or seen good, honest work by a police officer a total of once in my life -- when my overtired friend fell asleep at the wheel and wrecked his car in Upstate NY, the staties showed up, got the heap out of the road, and took care of the scene. They did a great job.
In the city, I saw cops beat civilians (possibly fatally in at least one case -- I obviously didn't stick around and watch) with no provocation, and it was widely known that they moved more product than the Mafia. That was in the early '90s, so I hope they've cleaned up by now. But I would never, ever have trusted or confided in a police officer.
In Norfolk, Virginia, I worked overnight at a Dunkin' Donuts -- I never got a chance give the cops free stuff (store policy), because they were never around during the night shift -- so I gave the gang kids free stuff instead. Interestingly, that was apparently the only summer the place wasn't held up at least once or twice. On the highways, a traffic cop ignored the car zipping past me at 90 mph, dope smoke pouring out of its windows, in order to give me a ticket for going 60 mph in the 55 zone. On my first date with the girl who would later become Mrs Gersen, a cop pulled me over, held me at gunpoint, and demanded to see her ID (she was 20 at the time), and kept demanding to know whether I had transported her across a state line.
I assumed things would be a lot different here in Texas, until I got a ticket for going 55 mph in a 55 mph zone -- the cop told me "Well, I'm tellin' you it's FORTY-five now, boy!"
I always love it, too, when a cop car pulls up to a red light, cuts on their siren long enough to run the light, then turns off the siren again and continues on their way.
I'd like to assume that most cops are decent guys doing an honest job, but I haven't seen it firsthand. Part of the problem, I think, is the incredible ease of getting arrests and convictions against people for minor drug possession or B.S. "sex offenses," vs. the difficulty of arresting and concicting people for actual dangerous crimes. Another part of the problem is that having police write tickets to collect revenue that funds police is a pretty flagrant conflict of interest. I think the justice system could make a few administrative changes that would drastically cut down on problem behavior, but in the meantime, I see no problem with taping them to keep them honest.
stuff
Man, you're doing something wrong. My (uninspected) car reeks of marijuana and when the police pull me over they usually just let me go. Have you tried saying "sir" a lot?
Or maybe it's a NH thing. Live free or die!
Have you tried saying "sir" a lot?
I'm the politest dude in the world, when I get pulled over. It makes no difference -- they always find some reason to ticket me, even if it's for something else. I asked my friends' neighbor (who was in the police academy) why that was, and she replied with no hesitation, "You look like a criminal." (That same girl, upon graduating, was soon canned for getting knocked up by her (married) supervisor -- it would have been overlooked, but the guy's wife took a tire iron to their squad cars, and the PD had to do something at that point.)
And suddenly I feel a lot warmer about the Swedish police.
Favourite story about Swedish police-work: Two Swedish teenagers decides to make a political point by sneaking onboard a visiting American warship and hang an anti-war banner from the railing. They're caught by ship security and handed over to the Swedish police... who takes them 'round the corner and tells them to run along.
(As told by leader of the former communists, Jonas Sjöstedt [who was one of those boys].)
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If you're getting consistently ticketed, you're doing something wrong. I gave about one ticket per five stops when I was on patrol.
I have seen good, honest police work firsthand on a daily, consistent basis. I am one of many decent, honest, hard-working police officers who signed up to make my hometown a better place and to protect decent folks from the criminals who would prey on them.
You are ignorant of what we do, sir. You are biased against us, and it is wholly unfair. Police work is one of the few professions where a mere 1% can reflect poorly on all of us. Do not judge all officers on the bad acts of a minute percentage, as visible and disappointing as those are.
[Checks DM Barcas's profile--sees "TX" and wipes sweat from brow]
Next time you pull over Kirth, lock him up and throw away the key!
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I always love it, too, when a cop car pulls up to a red light, cuts on their siren long enough to run the light, then turns off the siren again and continues on their way.
I saw that a few times here in Poland. I saw once or twice when they even didn't bothered with the siren.
You are ignorant of what we do, sir. You are biased against us, and it is wholly unfair. Police work is one of the few professions where a mere 1% can reflect poorly on all of us. Do not judge all officers on the bad acts of a minute percentage, as visible and disappointing as those are.
With great authority comes greater responsibility. Keep in mind that those few bad cops can do much harm.
Maybe Americans should start a movement to add an Amendment to the Constitution that grants the citizens the right to witness and record any civil servants when they are performing their duties as long as they do not hinder performance of the legal duties (e.g. don't step into lines of fire when apprehending armed criminals).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Drejk,
That should be the first ammendment. We don't (yet) have a recognized 'press' class.
Sarcasm about security cams aside, if we truly are a government of/by/for the people in the US, it is up to us to watch the watchers.
I lived in South Africa during apartheid.
Don't get me started about police brutality.
If we had cameras on us as often then as we do now, you bet the National Party would have made taking a photograph while black a schedule one offense.
The police arrested me for trespass (possession of long hair) when I was sixteen. They put me in the back of a van with sharp metal edges, then drove over a set of speedbumps at great speed. Said they would f$+~ me up. Asked if I smoke dope with my kaffir buddies, then whipped my feetsoles with a cane till they were so swollen I could not wear shoes. This happened on the day the Berlin wall fell.
My friend Michael Fitzgerald was arrested for marijuana possession in 1990. The police burned his palms with cigarettes for no reason except they were bored. There was no interrogation or confrontation. He was seventeen.
I saw three policemen slam a black boys legs in the door of a van seven or eight times, breaking bones. He had run from them.
Now English police are wonderful on the whole. I used to sleep in police stations while I was hitchhiking through Europe in 1993. I heard some pretty chilling accounts in Bristol and Brixton of police misconduct. (The only time I was arrested in the U.K was for sabotaging the fox hunt, and the police gave us huddling protesters a thermos of hot sugary tea for the back of the black maria. A policewoman said "Bad luck lads. Foxes don't vote.")
The french Gendarmes emptied my backpack onto the ground on the road from Belgium into France, and walked on my clothes and books, trampling them. They assumed I was a dope smuggler because it is a straight shot through to Holland.
More supervision of these moments would have been a wonderful thing.
Quo custodiet ipsos custodes?
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I believe Kirth lives in Houston, where I work.
I don't particularly care if you want to film me while I work, so long as you don't interfere with my duties. I don't think it's necessary, and definitely think it's as invasive as if I demanded to film you 100% of the time while you work.
My word should be sufficient as evidence. Any evidence beyond that is just gravy.
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Working in a field where I am under constant surveillance (EMS call center), it is only ever beneficial to have irrefutable evidence immediately to hand.
Any public official who claims "honesty", "integrity", or "reputation" as the basis for believing his/her story without providing corroboration is either lying, cheating, or foolish.
As far as arresting/detaining folks for videotaping police in action, only those guilty of wrongdoing need fear being taped.
Without constraint on the police/military through legal means, the populace is left to "take them at their word." Again, anyone trying to act without witnesses or in a manner allowing for denial of involvement is exactly the person who SHOULD be recorded.
You are ignorant of what we do, sir. You are biased against us, and it is wholly unfair.
I simply reported firsthand observations. How is that "unfair"? Clearly you weren't one of the officers I was describing; what that means is that not everyone is you.
If I'm ignorant of what you do, it's because I haven't seen it. If I'm biased, it's because what I'm reporting has been tilted that way in real life.
Simply telling me I'm wrong isn't going to change my mind. Demonstrating that I'm wrong will change my mind very quickly. As my father used to say, "Talk is cheap, son. Whiskey costs money."
I gave about one ticket per five stops when I was on patrol.
My wife and mother-in-law are never ticketed; they just get warnings. Then again, they have big boobs. If your 1 in 5 ratio is always the short dude who is unfailingly polite, but not subservient -- as opposed to teenagers, cowboys, hippies, and women -- and if your fellow officers follow a similar pattern, then, yeah, I'm going to get ticketed every single time, without "doing something wrong."
Quite possibly you yourself are more fair than that, but you can't speak for the weight of past experience, in which such fairness has not been evident. If I had video tapes of the events, I'd show you the film, and maybe that would change your mind a bit.
P.S. I live in Houston now, and I'm happy to say that I've never been dealt with unfairly within city limits here. But that's not been true elsewhere, including other parts of Texas.
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I have to say, that when I managed the convenience store for about 2 years, I would on average fill out 5 police reports a year. I found the police to be very helpful as long as I was cooperative. I know a few incidents that happened near store property that our surveillance cameras would pick up and the police would request, and I'd get it to them immediately with no fuss. Whenever we had a robbery or anything like that they would be there within a few minutes and they always caught the person involved. I've always had positive relations with the police as long as you're willing to be respectful and helpful to the police and not get in there way the investigations go by quickly and easily.
I've always had positive relations with the police as long as you're willing to be respectful and helpful to the police and not get in there way the investigations go by quickly and easily.
Maybe that's the reason for what I'm seeing -- I've never been in the middle of a robbery investigation, so I have no way of judging how they behave in that instance (like I said, my store in Norfolk wasn't robbed while I was there).
My guess is that the guys working Robbery and Homicide are highly-professional, but generally I don't interact with them.
It's not objectionable by any means. I don't think it should be strictly necessary.
I'm not going to copy the entire speech but I am reminded of Heinlein's This I believe piece that he did for NPR back in the day.
I think it still speaks strongly to these sorts of things.
The police can't demand cell phone footage for evidence without a warrant and/or subpeona. Demanding a cellphone for that purpose and deleting the footage is an abuse of power.
It's all well and good to talk about 1% ruining the reputation of the honest 99%, but this is a documented incident, not me sitting on my couch belly-aching while I do bong hits.
The police can't demand cell phone footage for evidence without a warrant and/or subpeona. Demanding a cellphone for that purpose and deleting the footage is an abuse of power.
It's all well and good to talk about 1% ruining the reputation of the honest 99%, but this is a documented incident, not me sitting on my couch belly-aching while I do bong hits.
Yes it is -- it is a flagrant violation of the cellphone owner's rights and an example of what police should not do.
What we don't see documented of course is all the days that all the other cops are not doing this sort of thing.
Heinlein was right, "Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries — but it is a force stronger than crime."
We hear about these bad causes precisely because they are not the norm.
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I won't pass judgement on the incident in question, not being there I don't know all the details. I will however say this, police work has to be one of the most stressful occupations around. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think adding some "armchair quarterback" standing 5 foot from an already potentially volatile situation is a good idea.
I've seen to many of these "police over reacting videos" filmed by people who are just pissed that their buddy is being arrested and shooting their mouths of to the cops not to be skeptical of them.
That said, I have been arrested 3 times. Each time it was because they had good reason to do so, despite the fact that I was laying face down getting cuffed I did as I was told and cooperated fully. After all, I was the a!&!@&~ that made them do it.
Did somebody say "bong hits"?
That said, I have been arrested 3 times. Each time it was because they had good reason to do so, despite the fact that I was laying face down getting cuffed I did as I was told and cooperated fully. After all, I was the a&+@*+@ that made them do it.
I have yet to be arrested, mainly because I'm such a goody goody..... well that and I know how to hide the bodies and I move around a lot.