I'm not sure what role the alchemist is trying to play. Probably wanting to be as versatile as possible, but I'd be willing to specialize. I would also prefer to not take more than one other class or multiclass.
first, the alchemist is plenty enough for every role and most specializations, every multiclass I can think of is most likely worse than a straight alchemist.
So what's left: vivisectionist/beastmoprh + barbarian, mutagen and rage and you've got a good strength.
vivisectionist/beastmorph + rogue/ninja = bigger bag of tricks, but they are all weak.
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Barbarian for a couple of levels on a dedicated melee Alchemist is the only multi-class I'd probably ever take. Though, as noted, Rogue/Ninja is potentially workable, too.
Oh, and the Master Chymist is actually a workable PrC for it.
That's actually about it. You're mostly better off sticking with the base class.
I'd do Alchemist to 20, and certainly never "multiclass", but "dip" (only 1-2 levels) if not staying full alchemist. You could take a dip if you wanted. It'd be less powerful, but could be helpful. In general, any full BAB class at 1st level, both for feat qualification and bonus feats those classes tend to grant, could be worth it. Water Sight revelation via an Oracle dip makes ranged sneak attacking viable for a vivvisectionist. Any caster dip helps open up their spell list for potion making.
Hmm. Ok, so no multiclassing then. I'm not a fan of dipping so I wouldn't want to do that, either. What would you recommend to maximize versatility? Even if I'm not as good at melee or bombs or buffing as a specialized alchemist would be, I'm a big fan of mixing it up and being really adaptable. I don't want specific builds, just general suggestions and such.
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If you want to be good at both, go with balanced stats. A finesse build is another option, but if you're not going vivisectionist then your damage will be very low, so I would avoid it.
A balanced build that can use his mutagen for multiple stats would look like this to me:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8; +2 bonus into the stat you want to specialize in.
If you're going human, I would pick Iron Will to shore up that Will save.
If you want to throw more bombs, keep a longspear for when you're forced into melee. If you want to melee more feral mutagen makes you a force to be reckoned with for many levels.
If you want to dip into a class, I would go fighter for heavy armour and martial weapons. It doesn't hurt an alchemist at all to wear the heaviest armour possible; you can make up for the speed lost with an extract of expeditious retreat.
The alchemist really shouldn't multiclass unless you have a really good concept. It hurts too much to lose those caster levels.
Do you think a melee focused alchemist shouldn't dip into barbarian? If so explain your reasoning. Also why do you think the fighter is a better dip then the barbarian?
If your DM allows, buy some scrolls so you can add them to your formulae book. Extracts makes this class shine!
Also, don't forget all those lovely alchemical items you can create. Need fire? Alchemist's fire is your friend! Need Cold attack? Try Liquid Ice! Positive Energy? Theres a discovery that can turn your bombs into a bane for the unliving!
I myself like the vivisectionist, but Preservationist is also a good option, specially with Planar Preservationist. Free loads of venom is nothing to scorn at.
This is beyond not optimized, but I am having a ton of fun with it. I have a Alchemist (Grenadier)/Bard (Detective)
STR 11
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 14
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Focused Shot (uses a crossbow also)
He is not the most combat effective but he is useful and effective enough. But more importantly he is very versatile outside of combat, and is usually one of the more popular chars at the PFS table.
That being said Alch is pretty darn good on his own
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The Grenedier archetype can become a great melee character. I really like the image and the flavor of it, even though it is not quite the strongest archetype an alchemist can choose.
I really like that grenadier archetype. I don't know how I've never seen it before. I don't want to focus on mutagens, so this is a good archetype for me as opposed to beastmorph. If only I actually had a chance to play this soon!
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The alchemist really shouldn't multiclass unless you have a really good concept. It hurts too much to lose those caster levels.Do you think a melee focused alchemist shouldn't dip into barbarian? If so explain your reasoning. Also why do you think the fighter is a better dip then the barbarian?
The big reason are the extracts. A single level of fighter or barbarian will not compare with the power of the extracts you're losing. Alchemical allocation at fourth level is only the beginning: haste, greater invisibility, freedom of movement, stoneskin, etc.; all of these will be delayed if you dip. The best discoveries are also based on level. Any kind of dipping makes you less of an amazing alchemist.
As for dipping into fighter over barbarian? Barbarian does have rage, which is attractive, but an extra +4 to strength and constitution for 6-10 rounds per day (and the high end of that would require the Extra Rage feat) is pretty shabby when you consider that mutagens last for 10 minutes per caster level, and eventually an hour per caster level. I would rather move forward with getting my greater mutagen than delay it for a single level with a barbarian dip.
Fast movement is attractive, but once again, it only works in medium armour, and if we're going for armour, we had might as well go all the way. The speed increase isn't even that great when you look at the haste and expeditious retreat extracts.
I would pick fighter because they get access to heavy armour, which is the best pick for a brute alchemist. They get an extra feat, instead of draining a feat in the form of the needed Extra Rage.
I wouldn't dip, but if he wants to, I would definitely suggest fighter over barbarian.
For flavor, I'd multiclass a Grenadier Alchemist into Gunslinger. I won't call it an optimized build, but I will call one that looks like fun.
The alchemist really shouldn't multiclass unless you have a really good concept. It hurts too much to lose those caster levels.Do you think a melee focused alchemist shouldn't dip into barbarian? If so explain your reasoning. Also why do you think the fighter is a better dip then the barbarian?The big reason are the extracts. A single level of fighter or barbarian will not compare with the power of the extracts you're losing. Alchemical allocation at fourth level is only the beginning: haste, greater invisibility, freedom of movement, stoneskin, etc.; all of these will be delayed if you dip. The best discoveries are also based on level. Any kind of dipping makes you less of an amazing alchemist.
As for dipping into fighter over barbarian? Barbarian does have rage, which is attractive, but an extra +4 to strength and constitution for 6-10 rounds per day (and the high end of that would require the Extra Rage feat) is pretty shabby when you consider that mutagens last for 10 minutes per caster level, and eventually an hour per caster level. I would rather move forward with getting my greater mutagen than delay it for a single level with a barbarian dip.
Fast movement is attractive, but once again, it only works in medium armour, and if we're going for armour, we had might as well go all the way. The speed increase isn't even that great when you look at the haste and expeditious retreat extracts.
I would pick fighter because they get access to heavy armour, which is the best pick for a brute alchemist. They get an extra feat, instead of draining a feat in the form of the needed Extra Rage.
I wouldn't dip, but if he wants to, I would definitely suggest fighter over barbarian.
So you're telling me that +4 to str and con, bonus 4 health, martial weapon proficiency, medium armor proficiency, fast movement, and a +2 bonus to will saves isn't worth it it because you're delaying your class features by one level? It just seems as if a level 1 barbarian dip is the best considering it doesn't waste actions to rage. Are you against a two level dip for beast totem lesser? Considering it provides two extra attacks at full bab when raging?
I just don't see it.
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I have a PFS character that I have yet to play who is a human wizard 1 (wood elementalist) / alchemist (mindchemist) all future levels.
The theory is that his high int bonus will be maximized. (cognatgen for bombs and skills)
Wizard gives you all knowledge skills as class skills, then the mindchemist lets you use double your int mod for them. He is basically a knowledge skill-monkey.
The wizard wood elementalist gives you a +1 to dex so your thrown bombs have a better chance of hitting.
The wizard also gives you a familiar, which is a compsognathus since +4 to initiative is awesome and you want to throw your bombs before enemies react. Alertness for free ain't too shabby either.
Additionally, the full wizard spell list unlocked as wands/scrolls/etc (not requiring umd checks) will be a big help.
He also has spell focus transmutation which will help out many alchemist spells.
That is the theory anyhow, he is still lvl 1 :)
I had a crazy idea that could pounce with shuriken using a beastmorph vivisectionist multiclass and 4 levels of ninja with the scout archtype
You could use flurry of stars to get more attacks use the the cahrging hurler feat from ultimate combat to deal sneak attack damage on a full attack with shuriken.
Straight alchemist probably is the more sane way to go. Someone else also thought of using focused shot on an alchemist hmm.
edit put beastmaster instead of beastmorph.
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So you're telling me that +4 to str and con, bonus 4 health, martial weapon proficiency, medium armor proficiency, fast movement, and a +2 bonus to will saves isn't worth it it because you're delaying your class features by one level? It just seems as...The alchemist really shouldn't multiclass unless you have a really good concept. It hurts too much to lose those caster levels.Do you think a melee focused alchemist shouldn't dip into barbarian? If so explain your reasoning. Also why do you think the fighter is a better dip then the barbarian?The big reason are the extracts. A single level of fighter or barbarian will not compare with the power of the extracts you're losing. Alchemical allocation at fourth level is only the beginning: haste, greater invisibility, freedom of movement, stoneskin, etc.; all of these will be delayed if you dip. The best discoveries are also based on level. Any kind of dipping makes you less of an amazing alchemist.
As for dipping into fighter over barbarian? Barbarian does have rage, which is attractive, but an extra +4 to strength and constitution for 6-10 rounds per day (and the high end of that would require the Extra Rage feat) is pretty shabby when you consider that mutagens last for 10 minutes per caster level, and eventually an hour per caster level. I would rather move forward with getting my greater mutagen than delay it for a single level with a barbarian dip.
Fast movement is attractive, but once again, it only works in medium armour, and if we're going for armour, we had might as well go all the way. The speed increase isn't even that great when you look at the haste and expeditious retreat extracts.
I would pick fighter because they get access to heavy armour, which is the best pick for a brute alchemist. They get an extra feat, instead of draining a feat in the form of the needed Extra Rage.
I wouldn't dip, but if he wants to, I would definitely suggest fighter over barbarian.
I think you're underestimating extracts by a fair margin. If you're going to lose out on your most important class feature anyway, however, grab the full plate and the bonus feat that goes with it.
u can do dex, which makes bombs hit easier, take finess for melee, then when u can afford the magical ability for ur finessable weapon called agile, u can use dex modifier instead of str for damage. take a dex mutagen and BAM, more of a beast. but i love dex over str......and im yet to go fully physical. my alchemist i built was purely on "who he was", never once used mutagens because of his past. i was forced into the healing role of the group. the GM made up an discovery for me to take. called it Channel Bombs. i loved that, but we had a idiot fighter who would charge into any form of combat that made me have to heal his butt or he would die. but alchemist is a very versatile class, an i think because mutagens can really help. especially if u take the discoveries for it.
I really need to see the builds side by side when in play. Yeah I'm probably underestimating extracts. It just pains me to waste a turn buffing in combat that's all. That's what I have against haste. That and I usually expect a full caster or a summoner to cast it.
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Vivi / Fighter dip is really good; for the 1 level of fighter, you get 2 hp, a feat, and heavy armor proficiency.
Alternatively, you can be a vivi 4 /monk X. Basically use alchemist for the potion throw-up, and get extended potions. Get a 20th level potion of greater magic fang and drink it every other day (lasts 40 hours, +5). Also drink Heroism 20th (and potentially barkskin 20th if it is that every other day). You'll have massive damage / AC. Use your mutagen for even more damage. You'll also have far better saves and more feats than a straight-alchemist, and won't have to worry about transforming in non-dungeon settings.
Alchemist/Bard may not be the best of split-classing, but it damn SHOULD. After all, what's more "in tune" for a bard than get drunk with potions and mutagens all the day? ("in tune", ha ha...)
That said, I have a Grenadier/Animal Speaker-Songhealer elf, and while this is bad combat-wise, it's absolutely great flavor-wise.
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They're 250 each, which makes that a really expensive idea. The mutagen helps a lot, and extend potion as well; in addition to the eventual ability to have heroism / barkskin +5 for 4 hour periods (20th level extended), and the 3rd arm for the shield. As a fighter I'd get +2 to hit, +1 damage. +1 on AOOs, +1 on "in reach" attacks, and 2 feats. I think overall the alchemist gives me more (4 skill points, 2d6 sneak, +3 AC (3rd arm with +1 shield; would eventually be +2 more AC), +2 to hit / damage for 40 mins, and enlarge person / expeditious retreat spells; in addition to heroism and barkskin 4 hrs / day each.
I'm not sure what role the alchemist is trying to play. Probably wanting to be as versatile as possible, but I'd be willing to specialize. I would also prefer to not take more than one other class or multiclass.
Alchemist is a fine class as it is. However, if you want to explore other options, there was a challenge in a thread to create a bard/alchemist for a level 10 build. Here is my proposal. Maybe it gives you some ideas :-)
General advice: If you want to multiclass, look for abilities in the class combinations that
a) synergize well with each other
b) are as much independent from class level as possible, so you are not hurt more than necessary (e.g. trading always available sneak attack vs. limited bomb uses per day)
c) most importantly are fun for your theme!
Barbarian for a couple of levels on a dedicated melee Alchemist is the only multi-class I'd probably ever take. Though, as noted, Rogue/Ninja is potentially workable, too.
Oh, and the Master Chymist is actually a workable PrC for it.
I did some figuring recently on a Str 14 4th level alchemist who uses his mutagen for Strength and drinks extracts of both Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength and who got Feral Mutagen for his 4th level discovery. I nearly fell out of my chair. That monster will have the fighting classes weeping with envy when he starts to dish out the damage!
When he multiclasses into Master Chymist (one of my favorite PrCs in Pathfinder)? Brrr...
That's actually about it. You're mostly better off sticking with the base class.
Slightly OT but isn't this true of practically all the spellcasting classes aside from the wizard? Really, there's not much point in going past 10th level as a wizard unless you really want to. Pick up one of the PrCs that gives a new level of spellcasting ability at every level and you're set.
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They're 250 each, which makes that a really expensive idea. The mutagen helps a lot, and extend potion as well; in addition to the eventual ability to have heroism / barkskin +5 for 4 hour periods (20th level extended), and the 3rd arm for the shield. As a fighter I'd get +2 to hit, +1 damage. +1 on AOOs, +1 on "in reach" attacks, and 2 feats. I think overall the alchemist gives me more (4 skill points, 2d6 sneak, +3 AC (3rd arm with +1 shield; would eventually be +2 more AC), +2 to hit / damage for 40 mins, and enlarge person / expeditious retreat spells; in addition to heroism and barkskin 4 hrs / day each.
They are not 250gp each; that I believe was the 3.5 costs. In Pathfinder 1st level potions are 50gp.
The mutagen would help a bit, although keep in mind it would only last for 10 minutes/level, and you would need an hour uninterrupted to recharge it. You're really only getting +1 attack and +2 damage from it though, because you lost a point of BAB for multiclassing. You're also levels behind on your special fighter feats and on weapon training and armour training.
There is also the fact that to get two uses of alchemical allocation at fourth level alchemist, you would need at least a 14 intellect, or you'd need to spend 4000gp on a 2nd level pearl of power. Making yourself a bit more MAD is something of which to be wary.
It's true, there's the extra skills and the 2d6 sneak attack if you're going vivisectionist, but I still don't think it makes up for losing the parts of a fighter that make you a fighter.
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I did some figuring recently on a Str 14 4th level alchemist who uses his mutagen for Strength and drinks extracts of both Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength and who got Feral Mutagen for his 4th level discovery. I nearly fell out of my chair. That monster will have the fighting classes weeping with envy when he starts to dish out the damage!
When he multiclasses into Master Chymist (one of my favorite PrCs in Pathfinder)? Brrr...
When Alchemists have their buffs available and time to utilize them they are indeed awesomely badas, yeah. :)
Slightly OT but isn't this true of practically all the spellcasting classes aside from the wizard? Really, there's not much point in going past 10th level as a wizard unless you really want to. Pick up one of the PrCs that gives a new level of spellcasting ability at every level and you're set.
Not recieving Favored Class benefits hurts a litle, not recieving two free spells a level hurts more. Neither are enough to make taking a cool Prestige Class (Harrower and Cypermage come to mind) an actively bad idea, but they do give a solid reason not to.
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Well, my fighter is a 14 int anyway; he's a trip-polearm build, and if you're buying a 13 int, may as well get the extra skill point :) (S: 18 I: 14 W: 12 D: 14 C: 12 Ch: 7 initial stats). I did fighter to get whirlwind "online"; now I was looking at Cleric for the growth domain (swift action growth 4 times day), and flight domain (+2 init), or inquisitor for growth + lots of skill points... but realized alchemist offered so much more. And Alchemcal Allocation for drinking / spitting up heroism and barkskin, as well as 2d6 from sneak attack (rarely, not what I am designed for) AND the occasional mutagen (for dungeon settings) make it a tempting way to finish up. I'd give up lunge and delay Improved Trip till 7th level; but I would usually get the AOO when they stand up anyway. So it seems the superior build; at 9 I may still finish off with Inquisitor; or just remain Vivi for even more potion allocations and more sneak attack. We'll see how it turns out.